[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Diligent

...As to this salvation "the same" thing -- I'd like someone who believes that Old Testament saints had faith in Jesus Christ before Christ was born to explain to me how it is that Christ's own disciples -- who knew he was the Messiah -- could be "saved" when even after Christ's resurrection they did not believe in it:

Luke 24:6-11 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. And they remembered his words, And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.

In fact, it took sight, not faith, for them to believe that Christ rose from the dead.

Now, if someone reads this, and still says Old Testament saints were "looking ahead to the cross," they'll first have to explain to me why Peter wouldn't even look back at it!

Brother Brandon, I am trying to put it all together.

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43). I realize that was a present time sermon addressed to the then listening crowd.

We see this message of a coming saviour woven through the pages of scriptures in the Old Testament. Why?

How were people saved in the Old Testament? If it was belief, then belief in what?

I see it was indeed different for them, of course, but was the message of a promised Messiah the substance of what people hoped for and the evidence of things not seen?

I look back, and although I did not physically see Jesus Christ, "I see Him" through the Word. I know Him. He's real to me and personal by faith. I've got the Holy Spirit living in me though, so my eyes are opened. What about those Old Testament men and women? What did they believe in? God in general or something specific regarding the prophecy of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Also Brother George you've pointed out the difference between "believe" and "faith". What is the difference and practical application? Anyone can answer of course.

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by Forrest

We see this message of a coming saviour woven through the pages of scriptures in the Old Testament. Why?

There is no question that the OT foretells Christ's coming and sacrifice. However, the question is whether or not they understood that Christ's coming as Messiah and his coming as King were to be separate events. This is why Christ's own apostles rebuked the Lord and tried to prevent his capture. They expected Christ to assume the throne, not be killed on a cross.

The whole "valley" of the Church, between Christ's ascension and his return, was a complete mystery of which the Old Testament saints were completely ignorant:

Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

How were people saved in the Old Testament? If it was belief, then belief in what?

A full discussion of this will take a long time. My short answer is that in every point in history, a man is saved by doing what God tells him to do. In our case, it's as simple as believing the Gospel. But look at Noah. He had to build a boat to be saved -- if he had ignored God's commands to work he would have died in the water along with everyone else. This is a great example because God doesn't tell us to build anything to be saved -- we rest on Christ's work. But God didn't build the boat for Noah.

As for eternal state -- this is why there is a difference between paradise and heaven. Until Christ died for the sins of men, Abraham (etc) were all separated from God in paradise. But they couldn't get to paradise without doing whatever it was God said to do.

There is no question that at all times, salvation is by grace through faith. But today we have the faith of Christ. Those before Christ had their own faith.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Compare with:

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

This is different -- I live by Jesus Christ's faith, not my own.

Anyway, not to get too long on this -- in the end we all must recognize that only Christ's sacrifice can take away sins. Hebrews 10:4. But how God chooses to impute righteousness differs depending on whom and when God is dealing. For us, we simply believe the Gospel and receive Christ. Noah had to build a boat. Abraham had to believe he'd have a son. Enoch had to walk with God (and it appears God even made exception for Enoch, taking him without even allowing him to die and wait around for 30 B.C.!).

David prayed that God wouldn't take his spirit from him. Clearly that is different than us, who are sealed by the Hold Spirit -- we couldn't lose the Spirit if we tried.

David even had a special arrangement with God. He broke laws that the law demanded he be executed for, and God did not require of it of him. God decides how he imputes righteousness (and sin) on people.

I see it was indeed different for them, of course, but was the message of a promised Messiah the substance of what people hoped for and the evidence of things not seen?

As it relates to salvation, I don't see how. We don't see the Messiah mentioned by any prophets until after Noah (if I recall correctly).

I look back, and although I did not physically see Jesus Christ, "I see Him" through the Word.

AMEN! As well we all should!

But keep in mind Paul's clear statement that much of this was simply not revealed before God gave it to Paul. We have the benefit of hindsight.

Larkin's "mountain peaks of prophecy" illustrations really help visualize this.

I know Him. He's real to me and personal by faith. I've got the Holy Spirit living in me though, so my eyes are opened. What about those Old Testament men and women? What did they believe in? God in general or something specific regarding the prophecy of the Lord Jesus Christ?

It depends on who you were and when. When you were dying of a snake bite during the Exodus and the priest walked by you with a brass serpent, you believed that you looked at it and would be healed. (Exodus 2)

Also, you believed that if you kept the law and did the right sacrifices, you'd be saved. That's different from now. Nowhere in Mosaic law is it mentioned that faith in a coming messiah is part of atoning for sin, that I can recall.

The problem is, we have this tradition that says "salvation always the same." At its core, it is, but not by the faith of Christ. Salvation granted by doing what God says to do. God told Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc to do different things. God told Israel to do animal sacrifices. And if they didn't do them, they'd not be saved.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Diligent

The problem is, we have this tradition that says "salvation always the same." At its core, it is, but not by the faith of Christ. Salvation granted by doing what God says to do. God told Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc to do different things. God told Israel to do animal sacrifices. And if they didn't do them, they'd not be saved.

Thanks for your clear response.

It's the last statement that prompts me to ask:

Was salvation actually granted by doing? Or, was salvation (deliverance whether it be physical or spiritual) granted by believing God, which in turn resulted in obedience (doing)?

I've always thought "belief" in God's particular word, command, or instruction alone is the instrument for deliverance and for pleasing God, regardless of the dispensation--past, present, or future?

Was it faith alone, which resulted in genuine works? Or was it faith plus works when combined, that provided deliverance? It seems logical and obvious that it required both, I know. And I think that's what you're saying. But doesn't genuine faith result in genuine obedience and action? Isn't faith, therefore, the principle truth that provides the salvation?

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by Forrest

T
Was salvation actually granted by doing? Or, was salvation (deliverance whether it be physical or spiritual) granted by believing God, which in turn resulted in obedience (doing)?

That is a very good inquiry. In all cases God wants belief. The doing is part of showing the belief, but there was never a case of salvation without belief.

I've always thought "belief" in God's particular word, command, or instruction alone is the instrument for deliverance and for pleasing God, regardless of the dispensation--past, present, or future?

Would believing animal sacrifice was what God wanted you to do, without actually doing them, be enough under Mosaic law?

Was it faith alone, which resulted in genuine works? Or was it faith plus works when combined, that provided deliverance? It seems logical and obvious that it required both, I know. And I think that's what you're saying. But doesn't genuine faith result in genuine obedience and action? Isn't faith, therefore, the principle truth that provides the salvation?

It has been said that it is always grace through faith, with the content of faith being different depending on whom you were and when. I think that sums it up well.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Diligent

Would believing animal sacrifice was what God wanted you to do, without actually doing them, be enough under Mosaic law?

Of course not. Like you said, for example, Noah could have believed God's way of escape was to build the Ark, but believing it and doing it are two different things. He would have drowned in his unbelief. But, if Noah did not build the Ark, would he still have "...found grace in the eyes of the LORD"?

It's my understanding that in some cases the scripture has "eternal consequences" and in others, it has "physical consequences". Would the "grace in the eyes of the LORD" been abolished had he not, in faith, built the Ark?

I suppose in the case of sacrificial animals being offered every year, it was God's specific means of atonement for the people and to not believe Him resulted in eternal consequences. But faith in the word, God's provision, resulted in the "believers" making the annual trip to Jerusalem. Their faith resulted in action.

Speaking of that, I'm so grateful:

“For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin” (Hebrews 10:14–18).

[Forrest]

I need to rest now. I'm getting pretty "noodley" with my MS.

By the way, does 45 to 35 mean anything to you. "Hook'em horns!

[George]

Re: “Who will be judged?”

Brother Forrest’s Quote:

“Also Brother George you've pointed out the difference between "believe" and "faith". What is the difference and practical application? Anyone can answer of course.”

Aloha brother Forrest,

Since I already covered this question extensively with a very dear brother - Sammy Tabuena from Iloilo, Philippines {“BibleStudent”} I thought I would post the answers I gave to him. {Alas, we “agreed to disagree”, but that’s our prerogative in the Liberty that Christ has given us. I still treasure his friendship and the fellowship that we have had -and still have.}

From AV1611 Forum > General Chit-Chat > “Dr. Ruckman” > Page 25 > Posts #245, 247, 250; Page 26 > Posts #254, 255; Page 27 > Post #261, 267;

Page 25 > My POST #245
Here is the Bible Definition of faith:

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

If the Lord Jesus Christ is ruling and reigning here on the earth in a physical, visible, earthly Kingdom - where does "faith" play a part? Where is the "hope" in "things not seen", if the Lord of Glory is dwelling on the earth? The people living on the earth during the Lord's reign are going to SEE him - "faith" is NOT involved if you can "see" the evidence!


Page 25 > My POST #247
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

I agree brother that Hebrews 11 (the whole chapter) is dealing with the "importance" of faith. But, before God explains the "importance" of faith - he gives us the "Definition" of it (Verse 1) so we will not think or believe it is anything other than what He has "defined". Practically speaking, the whole Chapter deals with the issue of "by faith" (15 Verses), or "through faith" (5 verses).

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

I have never seen God. I have never heard His audible voice. I have never seen Him perform miracles. And yet I believe He exists, yea and much more than that - I believe in Him and in His power to save; I believe in his Holy Word and in its power to change people's hearts and lives. I believe these things by "faith" - never having seen Him; heard Him; or seen Him perform miracles. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." [Hebrews 11:1]

If we can see - where is the "faith"? A person can believe because they see something - but that is not faith - it's believing by sight. The "Jews require a sign" - most of the Jews needed to see in order to believe (Thomas). But we are "blessed" because we believe by faith and not by sight!

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Thomas "saw" and believed. We have not seen, and yet we believe (by "faith"). Thomas believed by sight - we believe by "faith". There is a huge difference - and that is why we are blessed!


Page 25 > My POST #250 (From a Post by “Connie” - later "banned")
Thomas may have lived by "faith" after the Lord ascended, but he believed because he saw the Lord Jesus Christ. He refused to have faith; he refused to believe until he could actually see the Lord. He was saved by seeing the Lord - we are saved by faith in the Lord (Whom we have not seen).

The definition of faith in Hebrews Chapter 11:1 is perfectly clear and without any ambiguity - there is no seeing in faith, it is based solely on that which cannot be seen with the eyes, but which is believed on in the heart.

PAGE 26 > My POST #254 (From a Post by “Connie” – later "banned" - abbreviated answer G.A.)
Thomas needed to see in order to believe You are reading into the Scripture your "private opinion". The Lord Jesus Christ rebukes Thomas for being "faithless" (John 20:27). He was not talking about a "lack" of faith - He was rebuking Thomas for having NO FAITH! He refused to believe the disciples words (the record - the words of God). In John 20:29 the Lord clearly states: ["because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are theythat have not seen, and yet have believed." ] Thomas refused to believe by "faith" - he insisted (required) on "seeing", and when he "saw" he believed. Those of us who have heard the word of God and believed have done so by "faith", without seeing. There is a difference - the Lord Jesus Christ said so! (John 20:29)

Thomas was "faithless" and refused to "believe" unless he could actually: "see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe." (John 20:25)
The Bible states quite clearly HOW faith comes and "SEEING" has NOTHING to do with it:

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So then, Thomas refused to hear the words of God (the disciples' testimony), and in doing so he refused to believe (by "faith"). Instead he insisted on SEEING before he would BELIEVE - Again "FAITH" had nothing to do with his believing - IF "faith" cometh by hearing the word of God - which since the Scriptures declare it to be so - I accept the Bible record with no emendations, subtractions, or additions.

John 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


PAGE 26 > My POST #255 (In answer to: Biblestudent's Post - Post #252)
Aloha brother Sammy,

I'm not going to belabor the point nor am I going to go off in a huff because someone doesn't agree with me (after all I am fallible), however I will try to expound a bit more.

Your quote – Post #252:

“I think Hebrews 11:1 is just one of the definitions of faith. In fact, Hebrews 11 seems to emphasize the IMPORTANCE of faith rather than give the "only" definition of faith.”

Do you know of any other definitions of “faith” in the Scriptures?

To be honest, I haven't looked real hard in the Bible for other definitions of "faith" (there may be more). However, when I read the whole Chapter of Hebrews 11 - I have a slightly different "take" on it than you do.

In addition to emphasizing the “importance” of faith [Verse 6]; Hebrews 11:1 gives us the “definition” of “faith”; while the vast majority of Chapter 11 illustrates “HOW” faith works {i.e. by “faith"} or demonstrates “faith” in operation {i.e. through “faith”} - by giving us various examples of “faith”, (through the personal experiences of Old Testament saints) which I believe is the main purpose of the chapter.

So we have:
#1. The definition of “faith” {Verse 1)
#2. Illustrations or demonstrations of “faith” in operation. {Most of the Verses}
#3. The “importance” of “faith” {Verse 6)

At the beginning of the Chapter - (to insure that no one substitutes their “private opinion” or “private interpretation” of "faith"), God gives us His definition of “faith” – The same “faith” that is illustrated or demonstrated in the rest of the Chapter.

First of all, when it comes to the definition of words in the Bible that are of any spiritual significance or importance – I NEVER rely on Webster’s; Strong’s; Thayers; Kittel’s; or any other man to define God’s words. I always go to the “Source” – the Holy Scriptures - for God’s definition (comparing scripture with scripture – Isaiah 28:10&13).

Let’s “rightly divide the word of truth” – according to the testimony of God’s word:

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

“faith is the substance”
#1. So then: FAITH = a SUBSTANCE.

“faith is the substance of things hoped for”
#2. and: that SUBSTANCE = THINGS hoped for

“faith is the substance of things hoped for”
#3. then: those THINGS that are = HOPED FOR – are not tangible – they are “hoped” for!

“faith is the substance of things hoped for”, the evidence of things not seen.
#4. and: the SUBSTANCE of FAITH = EVIDENCE of things not seen

“faith is the substance of things hoped for”, the evidence of things not seen.
#5. and: the EVIDENCE of the SUBSTANCE of FAITH = THINGS not seen.

“faith is the substance of things hoped for”, the evidence of things not seen.
#6. and the EVIDENCE of the SUBSTANCE of FAITH = THINGS NOT SEEN!

So then we have: “FAITH is the SUBSTANCE of THINGS HOPED FOR, the EVIDENCE of THINGS NOT SEEN.”

You cannot taste, touch, feel, or SEE the THINGS (they are intangible) that make up the SUBSTANCE of "FAITH". You can, however, receive "FAITH" upon HEARING the word of God {and then "BELIEVING"}. As a matter of Scriptural fact this is the only way (today) that you can receive "FAITH"!

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

This is why the Holy Scriptures of Truth are so vitally important , because today in the United States they (the Scriptures) are not only being altered and changed by apostates; they are also being added to (the “traditions of men”) or being ignored by the so-called "Evangelicals" and “Fundamentalists”.

Hebrews 11:1 Now “faith” is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:2 For by “it” the elders obtained a good report.

So by “it” (faith) the elders (Old Testament saints) obtained a good report. [2Timothy 2:15]

Hebrews 11:3 Through “faith” we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Notice “things” again. There are “things” which are seen which are made of “things” you cannot see.

Hebrews 11:4 By “faith” Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Hebrews 11:5 By “faith” Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Hebrews 11:6 But without “faith” it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

NOTICE: Here then is the “importance” of “faith” (for all of mankind - extremely important!).

Hebrews 11:7 By “faith” Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by “faith”.

NOTICE: The “things not seen” – again [Hebrews 11:1].

Hebrews 11:8 By “faith” Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.Hebrews 11:9 By “faith” he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.Hebrews 11:11 Through “faith” also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in “faith”, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

NOTICE: “having seen them afar off” – is in reference to the “promises” not things”.

Hebrews 11:17 By “faith” Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Hebrews 11:20 By “faith” Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

NOTICE: Those “things” – again.

Hebrews 11:21 By “faith” Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

Hebrews 11:22 By “faith” Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

Hebrews 11:23 By “faith” Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

Hebrews 11:24 By “faith” Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Hebrews 11:27 By “faith” he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

NOTICE: Moses hadn’t “seen” God yet – However, he forsook Egypt by “faith” as if he had “seen” Him (that’s the essence of “faith” – not seeing, but still believing!).

Hebrews 11:28 Through “faith” he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

Hebrews 11:29 By “faith” they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

Hebrews 11:30 By “faith” the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

Hebrews 11:31 By “faith” the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

Hebrews 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33 Who through “faith” subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38 (Of whom the world was not worthy) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through “faith”, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

NOTICE: That “thing” – again.

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our “faith”; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Hebrews Chapter 11 certainly gives us the “definition” of “faith" and the “importance” of “faith”; but more than these two very important points – it gives us illustrations of HOW “faith” works and demonstrates “faith” in operation so that we: “through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.”

REMEMBER: the “things” hoped for? [Hebrews 11:1]

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Thomas needed to see in order to believe. The Lord Jesus Christ rebukes Thomas for being "faithless" (John 20:27). He was not talking about a "lack" of “faith” - He was rebuking Thomas for having NO “FAITH”. He refused to believe the disciples words (the record - the words of God). In John 20:29 the Lord clearly states: "because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." Thomas refused to believe by "faith" - he insisted (required) on "seeing", and when he "saw" he believed. Those of us who have heard the word of God and believed have done so by "faith", without seeing. There is a difference - the Lord Jesus Christ said so. (John 20:29)

John 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Thomas was "faithless" and refused to "believe" unless he could actually: "see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe." (John 20:25)

The Bible states quite clearly HOW faith comes:

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So then, Thomas refused to hear the words of God (the disciples' testimony), and in doing so he refused to believe (by "faith"). Instead he insisted on SEEING before he would BELIEVE - Again "FAITH" had nothing to do with his believing - IF "faith" cometh by hearing the word of God - which since the Scriptures declare it to be so - I accept the Bible record with no emendations, subtractions, or additions.

Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.

PAGE 27 > My POST #261
Aloha brother Sammy,

A word of caution: I would be very careful in a debate or discussion over Scripture in advancing your point using a "grammatical" argument. No. 1 - because there are no examples of such a "method" in the Holy Scriptures themselves; and No. 2 - because these are points made "academically" with the "intellect" (the mind) and not with the heart. {See my Post #1 Rejection of God's Words = EVIL - under "Bible Studies" - this Forum; or my study on "the heart of the matter" on my web page.}

In America we have far too much "intellectual" Christianity (grounded in Academia and based on the "mind"); and far too little Biblical Christianity (grounded on the Scriptures, and based on the heart).

Please remember that we believe with our heart NOT our mind:
Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

We are to hide God's word in our heart NOT our mind:
Psalms 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

We are to diligently "keep" our "heart" NOT our mind:
Proverbs 4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.

All of the "issues of life" proceed from out of our "heart" NOT our mind:
Matthew 12:34 . . . for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Matthew 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Matthew 12:35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

The Bible testimony is clear: All of mankind has a "heart problem". We are all born with a deceitful and wicked "heart":
Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

By now you might be asking what's the point? the point is while we are born with a deceitful "heart" we have to work on, or "mold" the "mind" in order to "corrupt" it (and that's where the wrong kind of "schooling" or "education" comes in). For nearly 2,000 years, apostasy in God's churches has "always" been introduced and promoted by the academic "elites", the "intellectual class" (without one exception!).

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. [1Timothy 6:5; 2 Timothy 3:]

IF the following quote is true:

Sammy's Quote:

"So, if believe and faith mean the same, except that one is a verb and the other is a noun,"

How do you deal with this verse?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Can you substitute the word "believe" {or “belief”} for "faith"? I think not. {Try it.} Unless we are to believe that our "belief" is a gift from God. We are saved through "faith", and "it" {"faith"} is God's "gift" to us because we "heard" the word of God and "believed" in our hearts (the Gospel of the Grace of God) and He "gifted" us with "faith" - His "faith" NOT ours. It's our "BELIEF" - it's His "FAITH". I cannot see how they can possibly be "the same".

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be
justified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Philippians 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

We obtained like precious "faith" (God's precious "gift" to us) by "believing" in our "hearts", after we heard the Gospel of the Grace of God.

I know that there also plenty of verses that talk about our "faith" in the Lord Jesus Christ, but the preceding verses tell us where our "faith" came from - it's a "gift" from God {the Lord Jesus Christ "earned it - it was His "faith" that persevered - it's His to give} - it's ours - but it came from God because we believed!

Respectfully submitted,
Your brother in Christ,
George

PAGE 27 > My POST #267
Aloha brother Sammy,

I want to be careful here - but I never said: "the "grammatical" method should be done away with". I was giving a warning about the use of grammatical "terms" (I wasn't clear when I used the term: "Grammatical method". Sorry!)

Here is my quote: Quote:

A word of caution: I would be very careful in a debate or discussion over Scripture in advancing your point using a "grammatical" argument. No. 1 - because there are no examples of such a "method" in the Holy Scriptures themselves;

Concerning your example: Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

My point is that Paul never used "grammatical terms" (verb, noun, synonyms, etc.) in order "convince" someone of a Scriptural truth. And since most ordinary people do not understand "grammar" (who does? ), the use of the grammatical "terms" only introduces a "foreign element" into a scriptural point.

Your previous quote:

Is "believe" (verb) the same as "faith" (noun)? I have encountered people here (actually my classmates in Bible school) who seems to over divide the word to the extent of saying that "believe" is not "faith". My answer was of course they are different parts of speech. One can not say:
"Thomas faith in Christ", but
"Thomas believes in Christ";
nor can a person say, "
Thomas has no believe", but:
"Thomas has no faith".

So, if believe and faith mean the same, except that one is a verb and the other is a noun, then according to Jesus Christ:
Thomas believed (verb) because he has seen (verb); or Thomas had faith (noun) after he had sight, or
Thomas had belief (synonym of faith) after he had vision (synonym of sight).

You may find this hard to believe, but I have never studied the Bible in this manner. Just like I have never used "Strong's Concordance to look up the "meaning" of a word in Hebrew or Greek, since I don't trust "scholars" to give me the "meaning" of a word in English.

I try to "rightly divide" the word of truth comparing Scripture with Scripture and leave out all other extemporaneous distractions.

Aloha brother Forrest,
Sorry for the looong Post! You asked for it! There's more where that came from, but I'll quit - for now.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by George

The definition of faith in Hebrews Chapter 11:1 is perfectly clear and without any ambiguity - there is no seeing in faith, it is based solely on that which cannot be seen with the eyes, but which is believed on in the heart.

Concerning the question, what is the difference between "faith" and "belief", this seems to be the thrust of what you are saying. Your example of Thomas who said, "...Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe" (John 20:25), is most beneficial and clarifies your view.

According to the definition of "faith" in Hebrews 11:1, it is also clear to me that faith is defined by the "things" we do not see with our eyes, but yet, we believe with our heart.

I especially agree that God has, in His mercy, given us the written Word whereby we receive faith. "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17).

To everyone who has participated in this thought provoking thread, and to those who are and will read it, I want to exhort all of us to continue, "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God" (Hebrews 12:1).

[George]

Aloha brother Forrest,

You asked some questions earlier and here is my reply:

You asked:

"Why are there so many prophecies?"

Because God is concerned about setting up His Kingdom, and as such He wanted His people (The Jews) to know and be prepared to receive their King & Messiah & Saviour. ". . . . for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." [ Revelation 19:10] The Jews, on the other hand, (at least their "leaders") wanted only a "King". They "cherry-picked" the Scriptures (like many Christians do today) so that they ignored those verses that dealt with Christ's suffering, death, burial, and resurrection. They were unwilling to accept their King on His "terms" - [Matthew Chapters 5, 6, & 7], and so rejected Him and killed Him.

You asked:

"more importantly, what was the significance of these prophesies?"

The significance first of all is that only God knows the future (the "proof is in the pudding"). Second - the significance is that, since God knew the future, He knew that His Son was going to be rejected by His people (the Jews), and yet He had to make a bonafide offer of His Kingdom to the Jews FIRST (already knowing that they would reject Him), before He could turn to the Gentiles and graft them (the "wild olive tree") into the ("original" or "natural") olive tree.

The "KEY" to understanding the Bible is understanding the difference between the Jews; the church; and the Gentiles [1 Corinthians 10:32] Basically I perceive the Bible thusly: The Old Testament (From Genesis 11:26 - Malachi 4:6) is the continuous story of God the Father offering Himself to His people (the Jews) and being rejected. In the New Testament (Specifically in the four Gospels) is the story of God the Son offering Himself to His people (the Jews) and being rejected. And from Acts Chapter 1 through Acts Chapter 7 - God the Holy Spirit offering Himself (through the persons and testimony of His disciples) exclusively to His people (the Jews) and they rejected Him (by rejecting the Apostles - whom He was living in).

Only after God's people (the Jews) rejected the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (the entire Godhead) did God turn to the Gentiles. From Acts Chapter 1 through Acts Chapter 6 we see a continual appeal (only to the nation of Israel) on the part of the Apostles to get the nation of Israel to repent of killing their Messiah and they promised He would return. The stoning of Stephen [Acts Chapter 7] is a "turning point" in Scripture; for, immediately after his death God turned to the Gentiles (First the Samaritans - Acts Chapter 8; and then the Gentiles Acts chapter 10; and finally the call to the Apostle of the Gentiles, the Apostle Paul, and the establishment of the New Testament church - a "mystery" to all of the Prophets, priests, and even to those disciples that walked with Jesus - Luke 18:31-34) Luke 18:34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken. {None of His disciples understood the "Gospel" - NOT until after Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, because "these things" were "HID" from them!}

To answer your question briefly (at least for now) - I believe the Bible is mostly about a Kingdom (God's Kingdom). and since the saints (Old Testament & New Testament) are going to spend Eternity in that Kingdom, God has spoken and written about that Kingdom far more than He has about "Salvation". God has a Kingdom and His main concern is about His Kingdom and its KING. The fact that throughout history He has "saved" {by GRACE} those who have BELIEVED Him and OBEYED him is ancillary to His Kingdom. From our perspective: The most important thing is our Salvation {And it is - as far as we our concerned. What could be more precious?). From God's perspective: The most important thing is His Kingdom and of course THE KING OF KINGS & LORD OF LORDS!

Our life here on earth is very short, but we are going to spend eternity in the Kingdom of God. According to how God looks at time - about six days have passed since He created Adam & Eve [2 Peter 3:8]. Our perspective is not always God's perspective [Isaiah 55:8], and as such, we are looking through a glass darkly (I don't know everything there is to know about the Scriptures, even though I may come across as a "know it all" sometimes) and all too often we are not looking at things as God looks at them, or the way He would have us to look at them {That's the whole purpose of "study"}.

I want to know what God says. I want to know God's thoughts. I want to know God's ways. And if those words, thoughts, and ways run contrary to the popular (and "accepted") "Christian Theology" of the day, I am going to try to follow His words (as I understand them) as best I can - thus the verse that goes along with my "moniker": "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." [Romans 3:4]

According to what I have read (I have not investigated this thoroughly - yet) there are at least five times more (or even more) Prophecies in the Bible about Christ's Second Coming (to set up His KINGDOM) for every prophesy prophesied dealing with His First Coming. If that is true (and I think it is so), then that should tell us which "Advent" is most important (from God's point of view).

For us: The Gospel (the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ) is the most important event in our lives (Hallelujah). For us: The fact that: ". . . God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." [John 3:16] is the paramount issue in our lives. For us: The Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ is the most precious and vital element in our lives (and it should be). But for God, although all these things that I have mentioned above are vitally important, there is something that is paramount with God and that is His KINGDOM and the KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS.

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Luke 11:1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

AMEN! SO BE IT ACCORDING TO THY WORD!

Life is not all about US or about our "Salvation" (precious as it is). Life is about glorifying Almighty God and His Son. And although there may not be many who are glorifying Him now - there will come a time {in His KINGDOM} that He is going to receive all glory, honor, praise and worship. I firmly believe that The Bible is NOT all about US or our "Salvation" - it's all about God; His Holy word; and HIS KINGDOM.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by George

Aloha brother Forrest, ...For us: The Gospel (the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ) is the most important event in our lives (Hallelujah). For us: The fact that: ". . . God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16 is the paramount issue in our lives. For us: The Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ is the most precious and vital element in our lives (and it should be). But for God, although all these things that I have mentioned above are vitally important, there is something that is paramount with God and that is His KINGDOM and the KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS.

Life is not all about US or about our "Salvation" (precious as it is). Life is about glorifying Almighty God and His Son. And although there may not be many who are glorifying Him now - there will come a time {in His KINGDOM} that He is going to receive all glory, honor, praise and worship. I firmly believe that The Bible is NOT all about US or our "Salvation" - it's all about God; His Holy word; and HIS KINGDOM.

This post, in my opinion, provides a healthy balance to things we've been discussing. I do not, of course, no much. But I know that my redeemer liveth! And life, indeed, is all about Him. Thanks for your investment of time and thoughtful comments.