I would like to make some general statements about the unfortunate conflict on this thread, maybe to help smooth it over, though I don't know if that will be the result. This isn't really the place for such a discussion but it's where the problem came up so I'll go with it.

I do think that if a Christian feels it is very important to correct another Christian it should be done in private, and not in a way that is publicly exposing them to humiliation. Public humiliation is for church discipline of a person well known to a congregation after suitable attempts to discuss a problem in private have failed. It only seems right to be cautious about correcting a Christian you do not know personally and who may have a different church background than you have. Are you really trying to correct, to help the person, or are you just lording it over the person? I do think that needs some prayerful consideration.

I also think sarcastic cracks should be avoided, such as telling me I don't know English simply because I dared to consider what the original Greek words Paul used for "covering" are. There seem to be many hidden "rules" in this forum that are unfamiliar to me, such as the attitude that there is no need to investigate the Greek to understand the Bible. Well, I do appreciate the basic idea behind this, and this place has made me aware of many of the horrible effects imposed on Christians by the acceptance of the new Bible versions, including the fact that we have to get used to looking up the original languages, which really should not be required of us. So I appreciate that basic idea, but to ridicule a person who does do that doesn't show a spirit of helpfulness at all.

That said, I really am interested in knowing what women are Biblically permitted to do. I don't want to discuss that on this thread but I am interested. Especially if there are rules here that I'm not aware of. I'm not completely sure what I'm being criticized for.

If it is for disagreeing with men, then why aren't you also upbraiding Beth? Is a woman never to put forth an argument that a man is wrong about something? Never? I'd really like to know, is this forbidden? Or forbidden under certain circumstances? If so, it would be nice to know in advance that this rule is going to be enforced here before a person says anything at all. And if it's violated by a person who doesn't know the rules, wouldn't it be better to be friendly and polite about it than just come on laying down the law and insinuating an intent to disobey? I'd really like to know what I'm allowed to do.

I think a lot about scripture and Christian life. Am I not allowed ever to talk about these things from a position of having knowledge of my own about them? I'd really like to know, and the Biblical reasons for it. Am I not allowed to have studied a part of scripture and formed a clear opinion of it? I really want to know, is this forbidden? Does it have to be only for myself if in fact I've discovered what Paul actually said and I know he didn't talk only to me personally? If everything I'm doing here IS out of bounds BIBLICALLY, I'd certainly like to know it and obey the Bible.

Unfortunately this is not the thread for discussing it and I don't think I'm up to discussing it right now anyway, but if someone wanted to make a thread on the subject later on that would be welcome.

In closing I have to say, I abhor humanism and it is very painful to be accused of it. What have I done to deserve the accusation? Simply quoted commentaries? Is that all? I don't use the term "humanism" much but to me humanism is allowing human wisdom to contradict the Bible. I've spent a lot of time arguing for creation over evolution for instance, from a strict reading of Genesis, a 6000-year-old earth and a worldwide Flood some 4500 years ago. Some of those I've argued with support reading Genesis to make room for the possibility of evolution even though they regard themselves as Christians and for the most part have a good understanding of the gospel. Seems to me that's allowing worldly (humanistic?) concepts to determine what the Bible says, but I'm opposing them, not allowing them myself. I also think "humanism" probably refers to thinking there's room for psychological understanding of spiritual problems, but I argue that the Bible is sufficient.

I suspect there is a wrong kind of anti-intellectualism going on here. God gave us intellectual ability and like all our abilities it should be used in His service. The mere exercise of intellect is not against God, it depends completely on how it is used, and if I'm a "humanist" because I use my mind, I have to disagree, I use it in His service as far as I am able and understand. But maybe as a woman I'm not allowed to? I hope if anyone wants to discuss this you will think these things through prayerfully and carefully.

Originally Posted by JaeByrd

Talking about how I brag about my hair and my good fortune and calling me prideful is not implying something about me? I did not make this personal. There were a LOT of things I could have said if I had wanted to get personal.

Clarifying your mistake in assuming things that you knew nothing about me is further bragging?

Let me make it very clear what I am saying and why I said what I said:

As one woman to another woman. Stop preaching to the men and stick with the realm of women as you should. The men have already refuted you on your issues. The women have rejected you and pointed out the rightful place of a woman in teaching. Teaching other women.

This is my last post on the subject as my husband has told me it isn't worth my time. He is right. You are convinced in your custom (which we are more than happy to leave you with), but will continue ad nauseam to refute and push your custom as the right one onto everyone else in the forum.

Both sides have been presented for anyone else to read and make their own choice. I see no further reason to continue debating.

Jaebird, I hope you will continue to feel comfortable in sharing how you apply scripture to your own life.

I don't know why, but some will take offense when we share how we personally, (along with the Bible and the guidance of the Holy Spirit) make decisions re: obedience to God.

I for one was inspired to hear your story about your long hair and how you share this wonderful gift with others.

Originally Posted by Renee

[B]

I was the one bragging that I could sit on my hair.

If the Lord has given you a beautiful covering and He says it Himself that He has given you this covering for your glory. Then I say go ahead and brag.

He made women beautiful. He desires for us to look feminine.

and of course everything we are given is from Him, so we also brag in the Lord!!

Praise be to Him!!!!!

I found George asking some questions on another thread about The Humanist Manifesto which he brought up here a couple times in the process of accusing me of being a humanist. I don't know if I ever read the Humanist Manifesto but I'm sure it made little impression on me if I did, and after going and reading it online just now -- I read I and skimmed the other 2 -- I can say that I consider the thing to be an abomination, a work of the devil. To accuse me of anything out of that monstrosity makes George guilty of a serious failure of Christian judgment. To put it nicely.

George wants an assessment of "how much influence Humanism has had on the Western World in the last 120 years or so." I'd say quite a bit, but not necessarily under that name. George's focus is so particularly aimed at these Manifestos that he's probably overlooking all the other trends that have contributed to the mess he's apparently talking about, under other names. I haven't heard anyone even use the term "humanism" in a long time, and I have no idea how much influence the Humanist Association may have had, but I know those same ideas are embedded in the culture through many other sources by now. Does George know where socialism originated? (Answer: Liberal Christianity in the 19th century) The ACLU? (Similar origin, linked up with Communism in the early 20th century). Is George aware of the influence of the Frankfurt School? All the poison that came to flower in the 60s was focused through the work of that institution, Cultural Marxism being its name, the "sexual freedom" poison, the gay rights poison, the feminist poison, the abortion poison, the "liberation" of all the evils on this planet I think, the virulent attacks on Christianity. Is George up on Postmodernism? Does George know anything about Deconstructionism and its source? These are fruits of the Frankfurt School that have been poisoning our universities since the 60s. Oh yes, it all started much earlier than that and the Humanist Association was at least one voice leading up to it I'm sure.

These are enemies I have been encountering and battling to the best of my ability on other message boards for some years now, but George calls me a "humanist."

Well, maybe a woman shouldn't be doing this sort of thing. I really don't know. Maybe although I have no family I should nevertheless try to aim myself to be helpful in that direction. I'd love to have more of a part in my grandson's life but that's not realistically possible right now. I hope I will have a good influence on him in the time I do get to be with him and certainly through prayer. Perhaps I should spend more time with my nieces and nephews and their families, who live a little farther than my car can be trusted to take me these days, but if it's what I'm supposed to do then the Lord would make it possible. I've felt remiss as an aunt but also don't see that I have anything to offer. Only one of them is Christian, and he's involved in a Oneness Pentecostal cult, which makes our conversations a bit tricky, although for the most part I have better conversations with him than with his unbeliever sister who resents my attempts to encourage her to stick with her husband. At least I got my brother, their father, saved -- he thinks he is anyway, we'll have to see, at least he's going regularly to a pretty good church and hearing some good preaching. Maybe I need to get more involved with all of them despite the impracticalities involved.

I don't mean to be sarcastic, I mean really, maybe I should, although I don't see any real opportunities and I don't feel I have anything to offer.

Point is, maybe I'm not supposed to be debating these things on the internet. Maybe I shouldn't even have gotten so involved in them and learned so much about them. I REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M SUPPOSED TO DO AS A WOMAN IN THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION I'M IN AND WITH THESE PARTICULAR INTERESTS AND ABILITIES!

Anyway, George, what you are calling humanism is just one trend of the demonic worldview that has completely overthrown this nation and the entire West in the last half century and is rapidly preparing the ground for the coming of the Antichrist. Or maybe humanism is one of the names for it, but it's not the most familiar name these days.

Please be careful who you accuse of what, because I have reason to think I'm far less "infected" by all that demonic insanity than just about anyone you are likely to meet.

God expects us to act on Scriptural precepts and principles, not with our own (Humanistic) logic and/or reasoning. That is why it is of the utmost importance that when we read the Scriptures we are to look for what God says (His words), and not what does God “mean”.

This is a false distinction, George. Words do happen to MEAN things, and what they MEAN is what we are to learn. There's no magic in words themselves, but of course we have to have the correct words or we aren't going to get the correct meaning. Certainly liberals and humanists can distort the message of scripture, but that's not the same thing as struggling to understand a difficult part of scripture, and there are such difficult parts of scripture, and getting the meaning of it is the whole point.

You seem to be attacking logic and reasoning as such, but these are not God's enemies. There is such a thing as reasoning based on scripture and not on twisting scripture. You are very much in error if you are calling all uses of the mind to understand things on the basis of God's word "humanism."

The same holds true for men’s words: we are not to try to figure out what someone “means” or what we personally “get out of someone’s words” – we are to read the words as they are, not what we may think they “mean”.

That is a dangerous error you are making, George. I understand what you are trying to say but you are not saying it correctly. In fact this is a good illustration of the point: I think I understand what you MEAN even though you are not saying it right. I think you are rightly concerned with people MISreading scripture to mean something other than it means, and putting words in people's mouths, right? If not, correct me, but if so, you are overstating the case and confusing the issue.

We can count on scripture to have the right words, but human beings don't always choose the most apt words for what they are trying to say, and our job IS to find out what they MEAN. That is NOT the same thing as "what we personally get out of it," but an honest attempt to understand what the words themselves mean, not what WE mean. In the case of scripture we can trust the words even though we still may have to struggle to understand the meaning the writer intended, while with fallible human beings sometimes we have to help them find better words for what they intend to say.

How about the situation with the US Constitution? I'm sure you are one who objects to how recent Supreme Court rulings misread it, right? Well, are the words there or not? It's possible some of the words could have been better chosen since it's not scripture, but I think for the most part they are there and the SCOTUS is misreading them, reading into it their own philosophy. it's MEANING that matters, George. Does Freedom of Speech mean freedom of pornography or not? It's MEANING that matters.



SOME OF GEORGE'S POST FROM THE OTHER THREAD:

#12. Are you aware as to just how much influence Humanism has had on the Western World in the last 120 years or so? Yes? or No?

#13. Are you aware as to just how much influence Humanism has had in the United States in the last 120 years or so?: (In the fields of: Education [primary, high school, college]; Government [National, State, County, City, Town – Executive, Legislative, JUDICIARY]; Media [Print, Radio, Television, etc.]; the families; and in the churches [especially with pastors, teachers, counselors, etc.]. Yes? or No?

#14. Are you aware as to just how much influence Psychiatry & Psychology (based in Humanism) has had in the United States in the last 120 years or so?: (In the fields of: Education [primary, high school, college]; Government [National, State, County, City, Town – Executive, Legislative, JUDICIARY]; Media [Print, Radio, Television, etc.]; the families; and in the churches [especially with pastors, teachers, counselors, etc.]. Yes? or No?

I have asked a little over half the number of questions you asked, but these questions are very important because many of the “arguments’; disputes; disagreements; contentions; and wranglings that take place on this Forum are because we Christians have been “infected” with Humanism – some more than others (but none of us is exempt).

We are a nation of sophists:

SOPHIST, n. L. sophista,

1. A professor (not a college Professor) of philosophy; as the sophists of Greece.

2. A captious or fallacious reasoner.

Humanism has permeated every facet of our lives and as such it is very difficult to discern between that which is Scriptural (spiritual) and that which is Carnal (our Culture, etc.). God expects us to act on Scriptural precepts and principles, not with our own (Humanistic) logic and/or reasoning. That is why it is of the utmost importance that when we read the Scriptures we are to look for what God says (His words), and not what does God “mean”.

The same holds true for men’s words: we are not to try to figure out what someone “means” or what we personally “get out of someone’s words” – we are to read the words as they are, not what we may think they “mean”.

I am done with this subject unless someone else brings it up again.

Yours for the Lord Jesus Christ and for His Holy Word,

We are to glory in nothing of our own but only in Jesus Christ our Lord.

Originally Posted by Connie

We are to glory in nothing of our own but only in Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Corinthians 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

why do we have to keep quoting this verse for you? Do you discard it?

and of course, I did say that all is a gift from God and he receives the glory for that. Can we not be happy with the gifts given us?

Why do you ask me to repeat what others here already find objectionable?

Why do we have to keep quoting this verse for you?

Because you are wrongly dividing the word of truth and keep insisting on it though you are wrong.

Do you discard it?

No, I believe it.

and of course, I did say that all is a gift from God and he receives the glory for that. Can we not be happy with the gifts given us?

You said it was good to BRAG about them. Scripture specifically says it's not good to brag about anything whatever; everything we have is a gift from God. You also said that but you tacked it on after saying it's OK to brag about our glory.

Now I've repeated my highly offensive point of view because you asked.

Originally Posted by Connie

You said it was good to BRAG about them. Scripture specifically says it's not good to brag about anything whatever; everything we have is a gift from God. You also said that but you tacked it on after saying it's OK to brag about our glory.

Now I've repeated my highly offensive point of view because you asked.

You were the first to call it bragging. I prefer as the scripture calls it to find glory in the gifts from God.

I'm trying to figure out if I should even answer you, Beth, if there's any way to say anything that won't continue this as just another bicker-fest but might actually shed some light on the situation. It may not be possible but I'll try.

I'm sure the ladies' long hair is quite attractive and admirable. I'm not arguing with their wearing it as long as it will get, I think that's great, and especially since it is done in obedience to husband and God. No problem. The scripture says it is given by nature as a glory, I am not arguing with any of that. And it's certainly a Christian thing to do to contribute part of it to people who have no hair.

But it came up in the context of people's telling me I'm at fault somehow or other for my view of what Paul really meant about the head covering. (No, George, not what I or anyone else say he means, what his actual words mean).

And it seemed to come up in a rather unfriendly spirit, a spirit of correcting me, even with some sarcasm, upbraiding and even some accusatory references to some of my own revelations of my own experiences and even confessions of my sins before I was saved.

The posts to me were all about how much at fault I am, and how I should be doing things differently, which their own practices seemed to be given to iillustrate: us good Christians, you bad. That's how I read it then and how I still read it. When they then come along and tell me how they have also been through hard times, well, I feel for them, but that doesn't change the basic atmosphere of them good, me bad, in fact now they're even gooder and me badder.

Now, in all this I'm just trying to be clear. I'm not upset, I'm not angry at anyone, I'm sure they are as exemplary Christians as they claim to be, and I'm content being a total sinner and wrong about all these things if only I knew what they are for sure, I just think I'm telling it like it is about this way they dealt with me. Although some attempt at softening the tone finally came from the other side, there hasn't been any recognition of this attitude of displaying their good points and my bad points. This is why I kept saying examination of the heart is in order. Haven't seen it yet. I hold nothing against anyone, but I am a single woman here saying some apparently very unpopular things, and they've done little but pick at me in a personal way, a whole family carrying on like this against me, and there's something a bit unChristian about it, that's all.

I would like to consider this topic ended if you don't mind.

Greetings, Connie. Just a quick note to tell you that I have gleaned much and been greatly blessed by your posts and attitude. May God be glorified.

Also, I will be praying for your situation mentioned elsewhere. Having an unsaved d-i-l in the Oneness cult weighs heavy on my heart. Take care and keep looking up.