[Brother Tim]

I would enjoy participating in these various topics, but I have a couple of questions.

Is someone going to be posting Dr. Ruckman's statements as a starting point? If so, two things are necessary. First, a sufficient quote must be provided so that others will not accuse anyone of taking words out of context. Second, will permission need to be granted by Dr. Ruckman for use of sizable quotes?

Will it be necessary to have familiarity with Dr. Ruckman's works as a whole to adequately discuss his views and alternatives to those views? I don't have any of his books to review and cannot afford them at present.

Are resources other than the bulletins available on the net? Sermons, articles, etc.

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

... a sufficient quote must be provided so that others will not accuse anyone of taking words out of context. Second, will permission need to be granted by Dr. Ruckman for use of sizable quotes?

Hi Tim,

For material from the Bible Believers Bulletin, sizable section quotes can just be a URL to the bulletin itself with the article name and page number.

My understanding (I have looked into this some) is that legally fairly good chunks of quotes are totally permissable under 'fair use' where the purpose is the discussion and analysis of the quotes. Technically speaking even a whole work can be copied within the context of such review and analysis, of course that is rare and not at all the desire and intention in this situation. (Try to find any copyright case that was against a review or discussion for quoting too much, I would be interested if any such case even exists, considering fair use. Some of those types of issues came up in the recent JW attempts to supress early historical documentation of their writings and views, however that was full posting of material with minimal intervening discussion.)

And the fact that the discussion takes place on the same forum can constitute prima facie evidence of fair use.

Now, it is a courtesy to inform anybody when you are discussing their writings in any depth, especially to give them a chance to reply to critical comments. Since most of the discussion we are talking about in this context is doctrinal, comparing views of Bible purity and specifics of the King James Bible view, that may not be seen as necessary.

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

Will it be necessary to have familiarity with Dr. Ruckman's works as a whole to adequately discuss his views and alternatives to those views? I don't have any of his books to review and cannot afford them at present.

The many issues of the Bible Believers Bulletin can likely give you a free and pretty decent orientation. Some issues may not be covered there but those that are should be in synch with his books. A couple of books are probably not a bad idea as well, if any discussion gets involved I would probably invest $20+ on such as well.

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

Are resources other than the bulletins available on the net? Sermons, articles, etc.

On text, I have run across only small sections, such as the sections on the Johannine Comma and the unicorn question. There are YouTube videos, probably unauthorized and copyright dubious, also they probably would not add much to any technical or conceptual discussion (a video could help someone get a sense of his personal presentation, one which I appreciated). Probably a similar situation on any audios on the net.

Shalom,
Steven

[Brother Tim]

OK, let's get started.

See: http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3874#post3874

I have about 7 or so of his books, which I will gladly post their titles if requested. I have as well seen a half a dozen of his videos. This in no way means that I agree with every thing he say, or writes. Nor does it mean that I am against him either.

Originally Posted by Truth4Today

I have about 7 or so of his books...

I doubled checked my library of Ruckman literature. And I must confess, I was wrong in my estimation (based solely on memory). I have only seven actual works from him. I shall list them just so you may all count with me.

1. The Errors in the King James Bible (511 pp.)
2. Biblical Scholarship (560 pp.)
3. Manuscript Evidence (244 pp.)
4. How To Teach The “Original” Greek (134 pp.)
5. King James Onlyism Verses Scholarship Onlyism (94 pp.)
6. A Survey of the Authorized Version (29 pp.)
7. Differences in the King James Version Editions (25 pp.)

I listed the page numbers so that you could see not only how many pages each work was but to gain a total of how many pages in all (1597). Apart from the sermons I have watched (chalk board and all), and the BBB’s that I was able to at least check (I was only able to read a couple), add to all this 1597 pages of information and I can say that I have learned much as to Ruckmans views on the Bible Version Debate. I do not want to claim to be an expert for two very simple reasons, (1) I have not read everything he has written let alone every thing written concerning the Bible Version Debate; (2) He is a complex man who is far from a simpleton. If you would like to know what is in them please ask me of such and I will post some excerpts in regards to this debate.

__________________________________

- “One accurate measurement is worth more than a thousand expert opinions”

- “...this is the Word of God; come, search, ye critics, and find a flaw; examine it, from its Genesis to its Revelation, and find an error... This is the book untainted by any error; but is pure, unalloyed, perfect truth. Why? Because God wrote it. Ah! charge God with error if you please; tell him that his book is not what it ought to be. I have heard men, with prudish and mock-modesty, who would like to alter the Bible; and (I almost blush to say it) I have heard ministers alter God's Bible, because they were afraid of it... Pity they were not born when God lived far—far back that they might have taught God how to write.” Charles Haddon Spurgeon (Spurgeon's Sermons Volume 1: Sermon II p. 31)

- “If, therefore, any do complain that I have sometimes hit my opponents rather hard, I take leave to point out that 'to everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the sun' : 'a time to embrace, and a time to be far from embracing' : a time for speaking smoothly, and a time for speaking sharply. And that when the words of Inspiration are seriously imperilled, as now they are, it is scarcely possible for one who is determined effectually to preserve the Deposit in its integrity, to hit either too straight or too hard.” Dean John William Burgon (The Revision Revised. pp. vii-viii)

[George]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

OK, let's get started.

See: http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3874#post3874

Aloha Brother Tim,

I have some quotes from brother Ruckman's books concerning:

1. Peter Ruckman’s quotes on Christ’s Headship in the church.
2. Peter Ruckman’s quotes on a Pastor’s Authority.
3. Peter Ruckman’s quotes on Apostasy in the church.
4. Peter Ruckman’s quotes on Heresy and Heretics.
5. Peter Ruckman’s quotes on Related Subjects.

I gathered these quotes [about 20 type written pages] about 20 years ago:

The list of quotes was in response to an incident that occurred in the early part of 1997 in which a Christian friend of mine was told by a pastor of a local church that Dr. Peter Ruckman was in support of his church’s stand on the power and authority of a pastor in the local church as being “just as” our Lord Jesus Christ’s Power and Authority over the entire church. The exact quote from their Constitution and By-Laws reads:

"that the one and onlyhead and shepherd of the local church is the God-called and Spirit-filled pastor, just as Jesus Christ is the Head and Chief Shepherd over the entire church;"

I want to make one thing clear before we were to go any further in this endeavor. My final authority in all matters of faith and practice is the King James Bible (AV). I believe in my heart that God’s word, the Scriptures, should be the final and absolute authority for all born again Christians. I am not appealing to Brother Peter Ruckman as an “authority”, although he was being referred to as an “authority” in support of a "belief" held by the pastor (and congregation) of the local church. I would simply be providing for the reader - direct quotations from brother Ruckman’s books to demonstrate what brother Peter Ruckman truly believes about some of these matters.

Oh, by the way, the quotes were provided to that particular brother - without having any effect on him or anyone else making the claim that brother Ruckman supported their "heretical" belief on the power and authority of a pastor.

Please note: All of the quotes cited would be verbatim from brother Ruckman’s books without any personal comments.

Should you think that these quotes would suffice for "conversation", I would be happy to supply all or part of them.