[Diligent]

This thread is all over the map. Seems a couple of people here can't help but ride their hobby horse regardless of where they are...

As to this salvation "the same" thing -- I'd like someone who believes that Old Testament saints had faith in Jesus Christ before Christ was born to explain to me how it is that Christ's own disciples -- who knew he was the Messiah -- could be "saved" when even after Christ's resurrection they did not believe in it:

Luke 24:6-11 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. And they remembered his words, And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.

In fact, it took sight, not faith, for them to believe that Christ rose from the dead.

Now, if someone reads this, and still says Old Testament saints were "looking ahead to the cross," they'll first have to explain to me why Peter wouldn't even look back at it!

Originally Posted by Diligent

This thread is all over the map. Seems a couple of people here can't help but ride their hobby horse regardless of where they are...

As to this salvation "the same" thing -- I'd like someone who believes that Old Testament saints had faith in Jesus Christ before Christ was born to explain to me how it is that Christ's own disciples -- who knew he was the Messiah -- could be "saved" when even after Christ's resurrection they did not believe in it:

Luke 24:6-11 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. And they remembered his words, And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.

In fact, it took sight, not faith, for them to believe that Christ rose from the dead.

Now, if someone reads this, and still says Old Testament saints were "looking ahead to the cross," they'll first have to explain to me why Peter wouldn't even look back at it!

Man, that's good thinking, and well said. Thanks.

[LindaR]

Originally Posted by George

Oh, and by the way BC and LindaR are married.”– although they were successful in keeping that fact from us for a while. BC”s Personal Testimony – from his only Thread:
{My perceptive wife picked up on that one long before I did!}

Is telling marital status a requirement for posting on this forum? If anybody would have read BC's testimony they would have known. We were keeping NO secrets...if you don't ask, you don't get answers. It's that simple!

There is one thing that I notice about some of these Christians that come on this Forum and instantly engage in fierce debates, and shortly thereafter start slinging accusations around - nearly all of them have a deep seated animosity towards brother Peter Ruckman.

We didn't come on this forum to start heated debates about Peter Ruckman. As a matter of fact, I was registered here in February, 2008 and only posted 10 posts, none of which were about Peter Ruckman. I took a break from forums for a few months and only 2 weeks ago started posting back in here. Almost immediately I was attacked by the "Ruckman" brigade. Your reply to my email, George, was anything but gracious. Neither my husband or I came on here with an agenda. You seem to be the one with all the accusations and judgmental comments. It's like a swimming in a pool of great white sharks in here.

Notice the difference between two men who came on this Forum within a few days of each other:

Born Crucified: {Joined 10/02/08 > Threads = 1 (BC's "Intro") > Posts = 50 @ 4.92 Posts per day - {Remember what I've said about new-comers and numerous Posts? }
Biography: He gave it in his "introduction".
Location: N/A
Interests: N/A
Occupation: N/A


Vendetta Ride: {Joined 9/29/08 > Threads = 3 > Posts = 35 @ 2.71 Posts per day}
Biography: Received Christ August 1969; became Bible believer (AV1611) in 1983; graduated PBI 1989 (PBI = Pensacola Bible Institute)
Location: North Carolina
Interests: Bible study, gardening, writing, boxing, history
Occupation: Luke 19:13

Please take notice in the huge "difference" between the "attitude" and "conduct" of these two men:

"Vendetta Ride" has been a perfect "gentleman". He has been respectful; considerate; and gracious {not at all like me }. And, as of yet, he has tried to avoid any "controversy". (Strange behavior for someone who graduated from PBI - wouldn't you say? Why according to all of the Ruckman haters, all of us "Ruckmanites" are "foaming at the mouth" heretics and church dividers.

On the other hand - "Born Crucified". Has been both obnoxious and extremely irritating with his continual “rant” against brother Peter Ruckman, and some of the brethren on this Forum. {We have to ask ourselves: is this how Christian “brethren” are to conduct themselves? - Accusing the brethren? [Revelation 12:10] - I trow not!}

God is no respecter of persons....why are you?

In his personal "Profile" (on the Forum) and in his only “Thread”, BC introduces himself as the “Rev. Ronald W. Robey” and gives us a short "biography" of his life.

For me the word "Reverend" already raises a {"Red flag" #1}. I despise "titles" amongst Christians; they are the "bane" of American Christianity (if you don't have a "Dr." before your name you can't possibly know what you are talking about! ).

I refuse to let anyone call me "pastor" (or "Reverend", etc.). Those of us who are called to be elders/pastors are no different than any other Christian men. Our "calling" may be different - but we aren't! There is no "Clergy/Laity" setup in the Bible when it comes to Christian churches, for we are "all brethren". [Matthew 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.]

Job 32:21 Let me not, I pray you, accept any man's person, neither let me give flattering titles unto man.
22 For I know not to give flattering titles; in so doing my maker would soon take me away.

Call me "brother", but please do not call me "Pastor" Anderson or "Reverend" Anderson, I am a man, like any other man - with the same faults and weaknesses as any other man. I am no better than any other Christian. As a matter of fact, when I look back over my 50 years of being a saved, born again child of God, I have to confess that I really am not much at all!

Does Peter Ruckman not go by the name of Dr. Peter S. Ruckman? Many call him "the Doc"? Pastors do have a higher "calling" and God has given them standards to live by....read Paul's letters to Timothy and Titus. Calling someone Rev. doesn't mean we worship the person, or hold him up on a pedestal.

BTW, how come in almost every post I've read, you brag (yes, I said brag) that you have been saved 50 years?

Back to "BC". Read BC's testimony. I believe that there are some things therein that raise more "red flags" (for me at least) and may explain why he is the way he is.

My husband posted his testimony to "share" with others...but all you are doing is picking it apart piece by piece. Do you find pleasure in critiquing someone's life? Who's being judgmental here? hmmmmmm

BC said: When I got saved - I didn't "give my heart to Jesus". I READ and HEARD the Gospel of Christ; and then I BELIEVED on the Lord Jesus Christ; and then I RECEIVED the Lord Jesus Christ as my personal Saviour. I DID NOT "GIVE MY HEART TO JESUS"! I didn’t “GIVE” the Lord Jesus Christ ANYTHING, when I got saved. However, HE GAVE ME “ETERNAL LIFE” when I received Him as my Saviour.

We can’t “GIVE” God anything! And I “cringe” every time I hear (or read) someone say that they “GAVE their heart to Jesus” – that’s NOT THE GOSPEL! {What would the Lord Jesus Christ want with my dirty, foul, and perverse heart? Hmmm?} {Red Flag #2}

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:9-10)

God wants 100% commitment...that includes our heart.

If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me: (Psalms 66:18)

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. (Romans 12:1)

BC said: (From BC”s “religious background” it is obvious that he picked up a lot of “baggage” along the way (some of which he has yet to “jettison”) {“Red flag” #3}

How about telling us YOUR religious background, George? Got any baggage you picked up along the way? All we know is that you've been saved 50 years. By the tenure of your posts, I believe you still have some baggage of your own.

BC said:

"In October of 1977 my son was born in JacksonvilleFlorida. Three days later, his mother was killed in a car accident when she was broadsided by a drunk driver. One the measly pay of $75 a week I could not take care of my child. And so, I gave him over to his grandparents and aunts that were with the circus. They left the circus that week for Judy's funeral, and I never saw them again. I've heard stories from other circus members who say that my son Juan is walking the high wire like his aunts and mother did.”

God has blessed my wife and I with 7 children (4 boys & 3 girls), and over the years there have been times that we have had a real struggle providing for, and training such a large family. But, God be praised, we always managed {always with His help}. I cannot (under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES) imagine GIVING UP anyone of our children (“gifts” from God) – just because of “hard times” and “financial difficulties” – can you? {Red Flag #4}

You have absolutely no right to judge BC for giving up that child when the mother of that child was killed. He was unsaved and just 17 years old earning $75 a week. Your situation does not even compare to his...BC did the very best thing for that child by giving him to his grandparents. He was not in a position to raise a child by himself. So quit the finger pointing here. You are dead wrong.

BC said: Call me a “gnat strainer” but, there is no such thing as a: “born-again Jewish chaplain”. If he is born-again, then he no longer is a “Jewish” Chaplain; he is a born again Christian Chaplain - who once was a Jew! Why the emphasis on “Jewish”? I have been born again since October of 1958 – I have never referred to myself as a born-again Scots-Irish-English-Swedish-French Canadian-American Indian Christian or elder! {Imagine my children having to identify themselves as born again Scots-Irish-English-Swedish-French Canadian-American Indian - Filipino - Chinese, and Spanish Christians!}

Well, you are definitely being a "gnat-strainer"...I am a born again Jew and there IS such a person as a "born again Jewish chaplain" I have met many. A Jew is a Jew by ethnicity...not religion. Many Jews are only Jews by birth/ethnicity...most of the unsaved Jews living in Israel proclaim themselves to be atheists. Plus, most American Jews in the United States are non-practicing Jews (they only practice their "religion" of Judaism twice a year). Ethnicity doesn't change. I am a member of the Body of Christ...spiritually, I am a Christian...but by birth I am a Jew and will remain so until I die.

[Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

]
This means that there is no differences in the Body of Christ. We are "one new man" in Christ Jesus both Jews and Gentiles who are born again.

Now that doesn’t deserve a “Red Flag”, but the “Pentecostal Evangelist” does {Red Flag #5}, and why is that? Because of BC’s own confession that when he got “saved”: “I gave my heart to Jesus Christ” {Red Flag #2}. Now don’t get me wrong – I am not saying BC is not saved (only God knows his heart), but what I am saying is that “giving your heart to Jesus” is NOT the Gospel!

I disagree.

BC said: The question arises: What kind of “pastor” is “My Pastor” Hmmm? What kind of “minister’s meetings”? You see if BC were a bit freer with this personal information we might have been able to tell “where he was coming from” sooner. {Red Flag #5} After all: “Birds of a feather flock together”!

George, share with us where you go to church. hmmmmmm BC posted that testimony 2 weeks ago. If you had bothered to look instead of attacking us because we are not of the "Ruckman" crowd, you would have known sooner. The information was there, but you failed to look...that's not BC's fault.

BC said: “I am not going to get into BC’s health problems here at all. We have several people on this Forum who are afflicted with some serious health problems and I pray for them often - that if God won’t heal them, then that they will have the grace to say: “His grace is sufficient for me”. We lost our oldest son (at 42 years of age) over four years ago to “health problems”, so I have some idea what it’s like.

However, my problem with BC is that no where’s does he say what kind of a “church” he pastored or what kind of a “church” he started. {Red Flag #6} Why not say so? Why keep it hidden?

The name of the church was in his testimony for all to see.

The way that this stranger (BC) has come into our presence with his “personal agenda” and “attitude” is typical of modern day American Christians that are: “. . . proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself." [1 Timothy 6:4-5]

We did not come on this forum with an agenda...the agenda was already existing. As far as I'm concerned, it is the "Ruckman" crowd who is doing most of the un-Christlike attacking. I've never been on a forum board with this many "great white sharks" before. You guys go for the jugular, don't you?

I for one am going to obey the Scriptures and avoid BC. He is divisive, argumentive, accusatory, and there is absolutely no profit in trying to reason with him.

Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

You've done everything BUT avoid BC and myself.

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by LindaR

We did not come on this forum with an agenda...the agenda was already existing. As far as I'm concerned, it is the "Ruckman" crowd who is doing most of the un-Christlike attacking. I've never been on a forum board with this many "great white sharks" before. You guys go for the jugular, don't you?

Here's the problem: Born Crucified dragged Ruckman into at least two threads now when nobody else mentioned Ruckman. Seems like Ruckman is always on his mind. There is no "Ruckman Brigade" here.

Don't agree with me? You must be a Ruckmanite.

Don't think that Christians are commanded to abstian from all alcohol? Then you're a Ruckmanite! (Never mind the fact that Ruckman has the same position as you do on wine.)

Don't need the Hebrew to understand English? Ruckman!

Ruckman, Ruckman, Ruckman!

Does he live in your closet? Is the poor old man stuck under your bed, whispering "advanced revelation" in your dreams?

Come ON!

Originally Posted by Diligent

There is no "Ruckman Brigade" here.

Yes, the name "Ruckman" splits churches, and splits forums. But it's not Dr. Ruckman's followers that do it; it's those who have an almost pathological hatred for him, usually because they've absorbed the lies of his enemies.

(I refer to "Dr." Ruckman because he has an earned Doctorate from Bob Jones University - - - which is not my favorite school, but he worked hard for the degree, unlike so many pastors who have "honorary" doctorates because they've sent so many of their young people to their favorite school.) I do not refer to him, or anyone else, as "Reverend." That's humanistic, man-exalting claptrap. God is no respecter of persons, to be sure, but He probably appreciates common courtesy. "Honor to whom honor is due," you might say.)

As for the "Ruckman Brigade," I was, until tonight, unaware that there were any PBI graduates here, other than myself. We are certainly not in collusion.

I disagree with Ruckman on quite a few things, but I will not give his enemies the satisfaction of naming them; and, anyway, none of them involve Bible doctrine.

I have been well and truly blessed with many fine teachers and pastors during my life. But I will simply say what I have said elsewhere: that, by the sheer, undeserved grace of God, Ruckman is the wisest, and the kindest, man I have ever met. For this, all glory goes to God, and none to the man himself - - - except insofar as he has allowed himself to be used.

Now, if this discussion has reached its logical terminus, may we talk about Jesus for awhile?

[atlas]

Guys,

As far as any " Ruckman Brigade " goes, let me make a few statements about this issue.

Three men have taught me more about the Bible than anyone.

1. Rev. Clyde Lane

My very first pastor. He taught me to believe the Bible was God's word and I needed to be saved. This man was not right about everything, but he was a wonderful starting place for me. He and my Daddy are the sole reasons why I got saved. He prayed for me everyday and that is why the Holy Ghost would not let me go. I got saved after he died, I'll tank him one day face to face for praying for my soul. His and Daddy's prayers kept me out of hell. Bro. Lane believed the Bible till the day he died and never meet or even knew who was Ruckman as far as I know.

2. Dr. Carl T. Lackey

He helped finish the job that Bro. Lane started on, he helped get me saved. After my salvation, he helped me learn the correct Bible doctrines. He also taught me how to be a soul winner and run bus rout and teach a Sunday school class. His last words to me friend of mine while he laid dieing in his bed were, " keep the fire burning boys, keep the wood stove full of wood and help build the church for the Lord. " He also believed the Bible, no Ruckman needed. He taught all of us to believe the Bible. He also believed the Bible before he ever met Ruckman. Dr. Ruckman did preach at our Jubilee ever year. He preached there because he did believe the Bible not because he converted Preacher Lackey into believing the Bible.

3. Dr. Peter S. Ruckman

He has only helped me with my understand my doctrine better. He has taught me many wonderful things in the Bible that I did not know. he has just built on the foundation that others have built.

I'm sure many other have a story just like my story. I do not think anyone of us is part of any so called " Ruckman Brigade. " Nor have I ever met any man that is part of the so called " Ruckman Brigade. " Ruckman is just a man, a saved man that knows the Bible. Nothing more nothing less. I'm a Christian. I do not fallow Ruckman or any man. I love bro. Ruckman, but he is just a man. I believed the Bible before I ever knew who Ruckman was.

My first pastor used to tell us, " do not worry about the Greek and Hebrew. " the he would say, " worry about the Bible we have in our lap. " He never went to Duke ( that is where he was told him to go to seminary before they kicked him out of the Methodist Church back in the 1950's ) The Methodist told him to go to Duke, when he prayed God told him not to go to Duke. As he always said, " the Methodist didn't call him to preach, so they would not tell him where to go or where not to go. He was smart enough to know God did not want him there and smart enough to tell us to worry the Bible we had and.


Atlas

[chette777]

Diligent,

I quoted from Ruckman for Forrest.

Maybe that is when he went on his tirate against Ruckman.

[chette777]

George,

Yeah I am learnig abot people like BC and LindaR. I feel sorry about their past and can feel for them. but their forcefulness turns me off. No one not even I teaches anyone it is ok to drink. but the Audacity to say I do and did. helooks to much to others and not himself. I don't need BC in my life to try and convict me of somehting I have not done. Just anoeehr Hoby Horse

Forrest,

the writter of Hebrews is the one who worte christ in verse 26 it is a generic term for messiah or anointed one. and saw him who is invisible would be The God head in vs 27.

is doesn't say Jesus and has really not anything to do with the Death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. it is talking how diffent people at different times had to have faith in God and did so. Just like the Jews have to have it today but it is inthis Godhead personification Jesus Christ that they need to really look to.

I am not as versed to answer fully why the writer puts Christ but I am sure he is just connecting Jesus with the Godhead.

[Here Am I]

Originally Posted by Forrest

None of us really deserve "well done". But by the precious blood of Christ, I am cleansed, forgiven, justified, redeemed, and declared righteous. WHAT A SAVIOUR!!!

AMEN and AMEN, brother!

That's worth a little shouting, hmm?

[Here Am I]

Is telling marital status a requirement for posting on this forum?

Not that I know of. But if so, here goes:

I've been married to my dh for 28 years, and only that long because of the grace of God, and His mercy and longsuffering. I might tell that story, here, someday.

And, no, I'm not married to VR. We've just known him for the last ten years!