[Forrest]

Originally Posted by pbiwolski

Taking doctrine at simply "that which is taught," allow me to catagorize some things. First, realize who is doing the teaching (be specific, don't say God for each one), and also who is being taught. To mention a few...


There is doctrine as taught to the nation of Israel.
There is doctrine as taught to the church.
There is doctrine as taught to those in the future tribulation.
There is doctrine as taught to those living during the Millennial kingdom, etc.

These doctrines are not the same, and find application in different ages to different peoples. You understand the point.

Proverbs 1:10 would fall into which of these catagories?

Writer: Solomon, king of Israel
Recipient: "My son,..." the son(s) of King Solomon

This follows the HISTORICAL application of scripture, that is, (1) a writer wrote the verse in question (2) to a recipient (3) at a certain point in history (probably late in the life of Solomon). Simply put, "it was good advice from dad."

Now for the doctrine.

The verse finds itself lending DOCTRINAL information to someone who had better stay away from sinners and "forsake not the law," verse 8. The chapter lends itself to the context of the Second Coming of Christ before it ends, and points the Jew to living right (works) in order to "dwell safely." (The cross references here a plenteous, noticing the words used by God to connect it with other passages.)

So here the doctrine is not aimed at the believer in the NT. But what about us?

The third and final application of scripture is SPIRITUAL application. Here's where we can get insight and not create problems in the Bible. While the passage is not directly written to us, nor is it in it's context aimed at the church, we can still gain application of the spiritual nature. Here, the truth is obvious (and again the backing from Paul writings to the church is plenteous).

The book of Proverbs (as is the whole OT) is loaded with spiritual truths. However, there are places where Proverbs does not match Pauline doctrine to the church. So when establishing doctrine, you had better stay with the "apostle to the Gentiles," and the doctrines that were given and aimed at you.


P.S. This is not the JW's form of doing away with scripture ("spiritualizing") to match their own doctrine. This is a form of sound right division of the word of truth.

That's very well written brother/sister. And I find no points of disagreement.

My understanding is that when Old Testament doctrine (like in Proverbs) agrees with the "Pauline doctrines" as found in the New Testament, they (the doctrines which are written in the Old Testament) are profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness and a "spiritual application" can and should be made by the New Testament believer.

The emphasis of your teaching seems to have become an issue of "Old" verses "New" and it appears to me you are attempting to make sure that I know the Pauline "doctrine" which is exclusively contained in the New Testament, is written to the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ. Is that what you are teaching? If so, thank you for the sound admonishment. I receive it and I appreciate your reminder.

I certainly agree that careful interpretation of history, doctrine, and spiritual application helps us to stay with the "apostle to the Gentiles," and the doctrines that were given and aimed at us. That is why it's so important for us to rightly divide the word of truth.

But I accept that, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and [all scripture] is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Not all Old Testament scripture is "applicable" to me as a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ. But I will not say some of God's inspired word is not profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness when He said "all" is. The scripture written in the Old and New Testament's are profitable for doctrine, and many of them are in agreement with Paul's writings making them "applicable" to my life. We should simply, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Galatians 5:1).

[chette777]

PBI,

Good job my brother, good job. Amen and amen.

[JMWHALEN]

Does Old Testament apply to Christians?

A Test
By John M. Whalen
(bold is my emphasis)
(understand the sarcasm)

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" Luke 6:46
__________________________________________________ __________________________

"Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity." 1 Timothy 2:7

"Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles." 2 Timothy 1:11


"And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also." 2 Timothy 2:2

Since, obviously, the body of Christ is being addressed in Matthew-John and the early Acts period, let us begin out test of intellectual honesty. Those who understand dispensational truth will be grading each and every answer. And there will be no "grading on the curve." Let's begin, shall we? And no "up periscope", i.e., "cheating" by "scoping"/ looking at another student's answers(such as a commentary, book, what my pastor wrote, what a "reverand" wrote, what a "priest" wrote, what a theologian with 15 titles before and after his/her name wrote, what "the church" "fathers" wrote, what "Luther, Calvin, Warfield, Spurgeon, Schofield, Finney, Wesley............................................ .......................wrote). Although this is an "open book" exam, only the Holy Bible may be used. And "feel free" to disregard 2 Timothy 2:15, at least for this test /examination since, obviously, all scripture is written for our obedience.

The first question is not "multiple choice", nor "all but two of the above", nor will any answer be accepted along the lines of "He really did not mean that literally- He was merely ONLY attempting to teach/convey a spiritual truth".

Question 1: Have you sold all your possesions? This is one of the commands of the Lord Jesus Christ- one of the "things which" He said:

"Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." Matthew 19:21

"Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth." Luke 12:32-33

("Extra credit" on this test! Please elaborate as to why you do or "do not the things" of giving alms, since, as previously mentioned, obviously the body of Christ is being addressed here-"little flock"=the body of Christ.)

"Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me." Luke 18:22

As stated, any answer along the lines of "He really did not mean that literally- He was merely ONLY attempting to teach/convey a spiritual truth", or, "that was before the cross and the resurrection", will be "red marked" as incorrect, and "non responsive/incomplete", for the disciples did exactly what the Lord Jesus Christ said, both before and after the death, burial, and resurrection:

"before"

"Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?" Matthew 19:27

"Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee." Mark 10:28

"Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee." Luke 18:28

"after"

"And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need." Acts 2:44,45

"Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk." Acts 3:6

"And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need." Acts 4:32-35

(PS: "Extra credit" on this test! Provide your analysis as to the merits of communism, i.e., "...all things common..." vs. "free enterprise"/"capitalism", per Acts 11:29 ,"every man according to his ability...", today. And we must "leave out

"But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." 1 Timothy 5:8

since, obviously Paul had not read the previous cited scriptures. Why Paul?!)

Penalty for disobedience:death-Acts 5:1-11 per Numbers 15:29-31:


"Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them. But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him."

I expect each and every believer to "Produce your cause......bring forth your strong reasons...", as to why you do obey these commands, or, conversely, why you "....do not do the things which I say..."(Luke 6:46). If you do obey these commands, I would at least respect your intellectual honesty, and your consistency.
As Elijah of old demanded, and I likewise demand:

"...How long halt ye between two opinions?..." (1 Kings 18:21)

And I do not expect "....And the people answered him not a word...." (1 Kings 18:21)


PS/PS:
1.You may use a pencil instead of a pen. This way, perhaps you can rethink your position, demonstrating a "...readiness of mind..."(Acts 17:11), and erase it.

2. "And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also." 2 Timothy 2:2

I encourage other "likeminded"(Philippians 2:20) teachers of right division to provide questions for this test. I am merely a substitute teacher.


In Christ,
John M. Whalen

Originally Posted by JMWHALEN

Since, obviously, the body of Christ is being addressed in Matthew-John and the early Acts period, let us begin out test of intellectual honesty. Those who understand dispensational truth will be grading each and every answer. And there will be no "grading on the curve." Let's begin, shall we?

Yes, let's do. Why don't we begin by saying that, although 2 Tim. 3:16 applies to "all scripture," it is emphatically not the case that all of Matthew-John was addressed to "the body of Christ." Huge portions of the four Gospels were addressed to Old Testament Jews, who were contemporaries of Jesus; when He preached the Sermon on the Mount, He was certainly not preaching to "the body of Christ," because it didn't exist yet. Other parts, such as Matthew 24, were addressed to people living in the Tribulation. Now, every word of these Gospels is profitable for doctrine, reproof, and instruction in righteousness; but it behooves us not to pretend that every verse is binding or normative upon the body of Christ in the Church Age.

Another little slip-up like that, teacher, and I'm gonna report you to the NEA!

Question 1: Have you sold all your possesions? This is one of the commands of the Lord Jesus Christ- one of the "things which" He said:

"Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." Matthew 19:21

No, teacher, I have not sold all my possessions, nor do I intend to do so. Here are my reasons:

a) In the verse you quoted, Jesus wasn't talking to me; He was talking to the "rich young ruler." (I am neither rich, young, nor a ruler!) Selling his possessions was God's demand of that individual, just as going to Ananias' house on Straight Street was His command to Paul (Acts 9). Now, there is a spiritual application for me in the verse, but the literal application was not aimed in my direction. So, I have no obligation to sell my possessions.

b) If I sold all my possessions, it would be impossible for me to provide for my family, and, as you yourself have quoted, But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel," 1 Timothy 5:8. Now, unlike Jesus' comments to the rich young ruler, that verse is directed at me: a born-again Christian living in the Church Age. Although you've ruled out that verse in the extra-credit section, I cannot answer this question without it. Don't tell me I can't use a specific scripture, or I'll have the Board of Education down on you so fast it'll make your head swim!

c) If I sold all my possessions, I could not support my church, or missionaries, or other Christians in need. Selling my car and my clothes would seriously affect my ability to hold a job. If this sounds like rationalization, then I demand that you come to school tomorrow, naked and on foot, and see how the Principal likes it.

(PS: "Extra credit" on this test! Provide your analysis as to the merits of communism, i.e., "...all things common..." vs. "free enterprise"/"capitalism", per Acts 11:29 ,"every man according to his ability...", today.

The "all things common" of Acts was not "Communism." Communism is a perversion of a scriptural concept, and has been called a Christian heresy. I cannot, in the space allowed, compare and contrast Communism and capitalism, because I've been studying Communism since I was 13 years old, and it's a big (though shallow) subject. I will simply say that neither system is any good, from a scriptural point of view: Communism is the philosophical expression of man's lust for power over others, whereas capitalism is the economic expression of man's acquisitiveness and greed. I stipulate, however, that in His teaching, Jesus did not denounce the ownership of private property. But that's a far different thing than saying that capitalism is "Christian." It's not.

For further details on the Marxist dogma of "from each ....to each," consult the Obama campaign.

[JMWHALEN]

Originally Posted by Vendetta Ride

Yes, let's do. Why don't we begin by saying that, although 2 Tim. 3:16 applies to "all scripture," it is emphatically not the case that all of Matthew-John was addressed to "the body of Christ." Huge portions of the four Gospels were addressed to Old Testament Jews, who were contemporaries of Jesus; when He preached the Sermon on the Mount, He was certainly not preaching to "the body of Christ," because it didn't exist yet. Other parts, such as Matthew 24, were addressed to people living in the Tribulation. Now, every word of these Gospels is profitable for doctrine, reproof, and instruction in righteousness; but it behooves us not to pretend that every verse is binding or normative upon the body of Christ in the Church Age.

Another little slip-up like that, teacher, and I'm gonna report you to the NEA!


No, teacher, I have not sold all my possessions, nor do I intend to do so. Here are my reasons:

a) In the verse you quoted, Jesus wasn't talking to me; He was talking to the "rich young ruler." (I am neither rich, young, nor a ruler!) Selling his possessions was God's demand of that individual, just as going to Ananias' house on Straight Street was His command to Paul (Acts 9). Now, there is a spiritual application for me in the verse, but the literal application was not aimed in my direction. So, I have no obligation to sell my possessions.

b) If I sold all my possessions, it would be impossible for me to provide for my family, and, as you yourself have quoted, But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel," 1 Timothy 5:8. Now, unlike Jesus' comments to the rich young ruler, that verse is directed at me: a born-again Christian living in the Church Age. Although you've ruled out that verse in the extra-credit section, I cannot answer this question without it. Don't tell me I can't use a specific scripture, or I'll have the Board of Education down on you so fast it'll make your head swim!

c) If I sold all my possessions, I could not support my church, or missionaries, or other Christians in need. Selling my car and my clothes would seriously affect my ability to hold a job. If this sounds like rationalization, then I demand that you come to school tomorrow, naked and on foot, and see how the Principal likes it.


The "all things common" of Acts was not "Communism." Communism is a perversion of a scriptural concept, and has been called a Christian heresy. I cannot, in the space allowed, compare and contrast Communism and capitalism, because I've been studying Communism since I was 13 years old, and it's a big (though shallow) subject. I will simply say that neither system is any good, from a scriptural point of view: Communism is the philosophical expression of man's lust for power over others, whereas capitalism is the economic expression of man's acquisitiveness and greed. I stipulate, however, that in His teaching, Jesus did not denounce the ownership of private property. But that's a far different thing than saying that capitalism is "Christian." It's not.

For further details on the Marxist dogma of "from each ....to each," consult the Obama campaign.

Very good, "Grasshopper"("Kung Fu"), or "Luke"("Star Wars"). Are you sure your name isn't "Opie Taylor", i.e., you learned under Miss Crump, and, since school teacher Helen Crump was Andy Taylor's "main man", you were given the correct answers by Helen?

As you know, the question is not "is it scriptural, or "is it biblical", but: Is it dispensational?

In Christ,


John "nip it in the bud" Whalen

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by JMWHALEN

Does Old Testament apply to Christians?

A Test
By John M. Whalen
(bold is my emphasis)
(understand the sarcasm)

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" Luke 6:46

In Christ,
John M. Whalen

I will attempt to address your first scripture reference on the test. I will prayerfully do my best. (I hope I pass.)

Lu 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Personally, it always helps me to understand the verse better when I put it in context with the verses which surround it. I’ll attempt to apply some things I’ve read recently from some well learned brethren.

HISTORY – Who is being taught?

Lu 6:17 And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people out of all Judaea and Jerusalem, and from the sea coast of Tyre and Sidon, which came to hear him, and to be healed of their diseases;

DOCTRINE – What is being taught?

Lu 6:39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
Lu 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Lu 6:41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Lu 6:42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.
Lu 6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Lu 6:44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
Lu 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Lu 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Lu 6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
Lu 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
Lu 6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

SPIRITUAL APPLICATION – What personal application can be made to me?

Since, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” (2 Timothy 3:16), I will attempt to make a personal and spiritual application.

These verses are profitable for DOCTRINE

Personally, this is good for doctrine because when I read the list of the sayings of Christ found in Luke 6:27–37, I for one, understand the absolute impossibility of keeping them. I admit to you, I cannot obey every single saying and commandment of Jesus Christ. I must trust Him to be my righteousness.

1. Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
   
2. Bless them that curse you, and
   
3. pray for them which despitefully use you.
   
4. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and
   
5. him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
   
6. Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
   
7. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
   
8. But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
   
9. Be ye therefore merciful, as [in the same manner in which] your Father also is merciful.
   
10. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged:
    
11. condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned:
    
12. forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:” (Luke 6:27–37).

These verses are profitable for REPROOF

These sayings are profitable for reproof because the Holy Spirit uses these words to convict me of sin. The Holy Spirit shows me through the word that no matter how hard I try, I come up short of the glory of God which is in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ.

These verses are profitable for CORRECTION

These sayings are profitable for correction because they set me on the right course. These verses show me that the high standard of holy and perfect living can only be obtained through someone who is perfect, sinless, and holy. I confess to you, I need and require a substitute, a propitiation for my sin; I need forgiveness, redemption, and sanctification.

These verses are profitable for INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS

These verses are profitable for instruction in righteousness because they teach me the only condition which is acceptable to God is righteousness which, I admit to you again, I cannot obtain apart from faith in Jesus Christ.

2Co 9:15 Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.

[JMWHALEN]

Obey "all of scripture?

Premise:I understand that while all scripture is "for our learning"(Romans 15:4), it is not for our obedience. We can learn many spiritual applications from all of the Bible, but doctrine for the Body of Christ in this dispensation is found in Romans through Philemon-only there will you find the doctrines of our salvation, justification, sanctification, glorification, propitiation......... as they pertain to us.

Question 2: Do you(generic) do the following, or do you just "throw it out"? Answer honestly and specifically, not in generalities:


A "yes" or "no" is requested.

Do you follow the Lord Jesus Christ as one under the Law? You do know, do you not, that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, up until the Lord Jesus Christ's death, is "law ground",i.e., it is a continuation of the "OT?

"Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not." Mt. 23:2,3/Galatians 1:4

=observe the law!

Do you do Mt. 5:29,30?

Or how about:
"And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them."

Shown yourself to a priest lately, and offer the gift that Moses commanded lately?

Do you follow the Lord Jesus Christ in circumcision(Luke 2:21)? Do you follow Him in going to the synagogue on the Sabbath day(Luke 4:16)?

Are you baptized to "fulfil all righteousness"?:

"And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness." Mt. 3:15

Baptism was part of the righteous requirements of the law-it was not optional. Baptism, contrary to what is commonly assumed and taught, was an "OT" ordinance.

Previous post-Have you sold all your possessions? The Lord Jesus Christ commanded his disciples to:

Command given: Mt. 19:21' Mk. 10:21;Luke 12:33,18:22
Command obeyed: Mt. 19:27;Mk. 10:28;Luke 5:11, 18:28; Acts 2:44-45,4:32,34
Penalty for disobedience-death-Acts 5:1-11

Do you have "...all things common...": Acts 2:44, 4:32-34, 3:6

Do you offer animal sacrifices? The Lord Jesus Christ taught this. Do you tithe over 33%(the tithe was not just 10%) of your assets(the tithe was on all your assets, not just your income) to the Levitical priesthood? The Lord Jesus Christ taught this. Do you go to Jerusalem on the feast of Pentecost, Passover, and Tabernacles?(if you are a male, this is a requirement of the Law). The Lord Jesus Christ taught this. How about the 613 commandments of the law(not just 10-there were 613). Do you keep them all?The Lord Jesus Christ taught this. How many have you broken? The list goes on and on.

What about forgiving others? Failure to rightly divide the word of truth"(2 Tim. 2:15) results in confusing forgiveness in this current "dispensation of the grace of God"Eph. 3:2), with the forgiveness in the Tribulation addressed to Jews(Hebrews-Revelation). The Jews will be on "short accounts" with the LORD at this time.

This is a prime example of failure to "rightly divide the word of truth"(2 Tim. 2:15: comparing forgiveness prior to the cross, and prior to the setting aside of Israel(temporarily) in Acts, and prior to the "dispensation of the grace of God"(Eph. 3:2), the "dispensation of God"(Col. 1:25) committed to Paul from the risen, ascended, glorified Lord Jesus Christ from heaven( And this includes comparing forgiveness in this dispensation with that in the Tribulation). Compare:

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness(emphasis mine-past tense)of sins" Col. 1:14

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven(emphasis mine-past tense) you all trespasses" Col. 2:13

"Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave(emphasis mine-past tense)you, so also do ye." Col. 3:13

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness(emphasis mine-past tense) of sins, according to the riches of his grace" Eph. 1:7

"And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven(emphasis mine-past tense) you" Eph. 4:32.
=done deal

Compare this with the Lord Jesus Christ's dealing with Israel in "the gospels", which is a continuation of the Old Testament, until Calvary:

"Matt 6:14-15
14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 "But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

And others:
"S o likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses" Mt. 18:35.

"And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses." Mk. 11:25,26.

"forgive, and ye shall be forgiven." Luke 6:37
"...if he repent, forgive him" Luke 17:3

=conditional forgiveness=law, not grace. This is "law ground."

Are you "following Jesus" here?

Again, do you follow the Lord Jesus Christ as one under the Law?

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Mt. 5:17

"But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law..." Galatians 4

How are you doing on these:

-tithing approximately 33% of your net worth(not your income-the law demanded 33=% of your net worth)?(or perhaps you send in 33=% of all your net worth to TBN)
-Do you "...love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might...."(Deut 6:5, Mt. 22:37, Mark 12:30)?
- Or better yet, do you love me as yourself(Mt. 22:39, Mark 12:31)?
-Keep the Sabbath lately(Exodus 31:15, 35:2; Lev. 19:30)?
-Have you gone to any Gentiles lately(Mt. 10:5,6)?
-Have you obeyed the Lord Jesus Christ's "charge" to "...tell no man that he was the Christ"(Mt. 16:20)?
-Condemned anyone recently(Luke 6:37)?
-Ever called someone a fool(Mt. 5:22)?
-Have you brought any gifts to the altar recently(Mt. 5:24)?
-Do you travel to Jerusalem 3 times a year to keep the feasts of Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles(Exodus 23:14)?

If you are not obeying all of this, you, like everyone else who self-righteously state that " it is the Lord Jesus who we follow.", do not, and cannot , fufill his commands, nor does the LORD God expect you to in this dispensation. . The truth is, all christians " divide" the Bible(but not always "rightly", including myself), and distinguish between God's different dealings with mankind under different dispensations. Most, for example, in the most obvious example, distinguish between the OT and the NT. I showed you the proper division with regards to the forgiveness issue, for example. Most just won't obey the command to divide with regards to this issue, and thus misunderstand the cross of cross and it's finality. By "rightly dividing the word of truth"(2 Tim. 2:15), we can understand the "supposed" contradictions in scripture, by understanding that their are divisions in the Holy Bible. Again, anyone with a simple understanding of the Holy Bible recognizes the division placed by God between the "Old Testament" and "New Testament". Those who deny that there are divisions, are either woefully ignorant(ignorant means 'lack of knowledge', not stupid), or intentionally dishonest.



The Lord Jesus Christ taught the Law, which most apparently just fail to realize. Again, do you do everything the Lord Jesus Christ said to do in Mt., Mark, Luke, and John? ="follow Jesus"?That is "law ground", and "kingdom ground", and is not applicable for doctrine to the Body of Christ in this dispensation of the grace of God. We are told by the Lord Jesus Christ, when he appeared to the apostle Paul from heaven, that through Paul comes our doctrine for the Body of Christ, including the command of right division.


The Lord Jesus Christ taught the law, and told all his followers to observe the law.. Those who continue to teach doctrine as outlined in Matthew-John, and Hebrews-Revelation, including the doctrine of forgiveness, for example, are mixing law with grace, and confusing the prophetic program, with the Lord Jesus Christ serving as "...a minister of the circumcision...."(Rom. 15:8), with the mystery program. The Lord Jesus Christ was a Jew among the Jews, confining his ministry to the nation of Israel, and announcing Himself as their King. Israel having rejected Him, He went back to glory, and when Israel continued in their rejection, He revealed through the apostle Paul His new program/"dispensation of the grace of God"(Eph. 3:2), so that now we do not follow Him in his eartly ministry of His humility, as the Messiah of Israel, but we follow Him as the glorified One at the LORD God's right hand, and the Head of the Body. The apostle Paul, through whom the truth of this age has been revealed, not once in any of his inspired writings refers to anything that "Jesus"(his name of humiliation) said or did while upon earth, except for the cross and the resurrection. In fact, we read:

"Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more." 2 Cor. 5:16

As we follow the Lord Jesus Christ today, we are commanded to obey 1 Cor. 11:1: "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." Thus, we are follow the risen, ascended, glorified Lord Jesus Christ, not "Jesus" after the flesh, "...Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords"(1 Timothy 6:15).

Although we can learn many spiritual applications from "the gospels", and Hebrews-Rev, our doctrine by command(not optional) from the Lord Jesus Christ is given through Paul, "the apostle of the Gentles"(Romans 11:13). You must "rightly divide the word of truth"-th! is is a command, not a suggestion.

The inevitable consequences of failure to rightly divide is confusion, mixing law with grace, the commands given to Israel under the law with the doctrine given to the Body of Christ(which was a mystery not previously revealed until given to Paul by revelation-the Body of Christ did not exist prior to Paul) through Paul in this dispensation.

The great confusion among believers is failure to rightly divide the word of truth(2 Tim. 2:15), i.e., confusing the prophetic program, which has as its core the LORD God's dealing with unbelieving Israel and the unbelieving nations under the law and the "gospel of the kingdom", and in judgement and wrath, which was "spoken about since the world began"(Luke 1:68-70; Acts 3:21-24), from the mystery program as revealed to the apostle Paul, which "was kept secret, hidden(in God, not the OT scriptures) since the world began (Romans 16:25; Ephesians 3:5,9; Colossians 1:26):


Our command from the Lord Jesus Christ is to follow the doctrine espoused by Paul in Romans-Philemon, for these are the Lord Jesus Christ's words for today, and the Lord Jesus Christ has commanded us to follow this doctrine, for following Paul is following the Lord Jesus Christ:

"Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me." 1 Cor. 4:16
"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." 1 Cor. 11:1
" Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample." Philippians 3:17

Take Romans through Philemon out of Scripture, and you do not have Christian doctrine. NADA.

In Christ,
John M. Whalen

Originally Posted by JMWHALEN

Question 2: Do you(generic) do the following, or do you just "throw it out"? Answer honestly and specifically, not in generalities:

I'm not gonna answer at all, because you hurt my feelings when you called me Opie. You will be hearing from my attorneys.

Anyway, I think the question is kinda repetitious. It's essentially the same ground covered in Question 1.

Take Romans through Philemon out of Scripture, and you do not have Christian doctrine. NADA.

Thank you, teacher. Did you say your name was Bullinger, or Stam?

This last statement is totally inconsistent with 2 Tim. 3:15. Christian doctrine is found throughout the scriptures: if it's not, then the non-Pauline scriptures are not "profitable for doctrine."

I think, and I hope, that you really meant to say that our instructions are not found throughout the Scriptures. But even that idea gives me the creeps. What about the book of Proverbs?

No, your final statement has a hyper-dispensationalist ring to it that worries me.

[JMWHALEN]

Originally Posted by Vendetta Ride

I'm not gonna answer at all, because you hurt my feelings when you called me Opie. You will be hearing from my attorneys.

Anyway, I think the question is kinda repetitious. It's essentially the same ground covered in Question 1.


Thank you, teacher. Did you say your name was Bullinger, or Stam?

This last statement is totally inconsistent with 2 Tim. 3:15. Christian doctrine is found throughout the scriptures: if it's not, then the non-Pauline scriptures are not "profitable for doctrine."

I think, and I hope, that you really meant to say that our instructions are not found throughout the Scriptures. But even that idea gives me the creeps. What about the book of Proverbs?

No, your final statement has a hyper-dispensationalist ring to it that worries me.


:confused:

________

"No, your final statement has a hyper-dispensationalist ring to it that worries me."

As I stated, everyone who does "divide" the word of truth, does not always "rightly" divide it-I am no exception. Nor are you. Perhaps the following best reflects my views on the "dispensational boundary, i.e., "Acts 2, Mid-Acts, Acts 28(Bullinger)...."

http://www.lifeenhancements.us/hyper.html


Stam is "Acts 9." I "lean" towards an "Acts 13" position, per below:

Some observations on Acts 13-did you ever notice?
By John M. Whalen

Barnabas has preeminence, then Saul(bold is my emphasis):

"Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul." Acts 11:30

"And Barnabas and Saul returned from Jerusalem, when they had fulfilled their ministry, and took with them John, whose surname was Mark." Acts 12:25

"Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them." Acts 13:1, 2

"Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God." Acts 13:7

Now, notice the shift: Saul becomes Paul, and Paul is scripturally named before Barnabas hereafter most of the time(2 exceptions-Acts 15:12. 15:25): Acts 13:43, 13:46, 13:50, 14:12("...Paul... he was the chief speaker..."), 14:14, 15:2, 15:22, 15:35, 15:36.

Saul becomes Paul per Acts 13:9, and his name is changed at the time of his first miracle=his Hebrew name vanishes/Saul becoming/"changing to " Paul was one of the greatest displays, one of the greatest "miracles",by the LORD God, i.e., a pattern of our salvation! . Yes, Paul, a murderer, became a "miracle" of the LORD God's grace.

And notice the parallels/differences vs. Peter's first miracle:

Peter: "And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us." Acts 3:4

Paul: "Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him." Acts 13:9

Peter, "fastening his eyes" upon the lame man, a Jew, pronounced a blessing. Paul, "set his eyes" on a Jew, Barjesus("son of salvation"), and pronounced his doom! Peter's first miracle references the restoration of Israel, while Paul's first miracle references the rejection of Israel, and the reconciliation of the Gentiles, due to Israel's blindness:

"And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness(diminishing of the eyes-my note); and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand." Acts 13:11

"Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord." Acts 13:12

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." Romans 11:25

Thus, the "son of salvation" is blinded for a season-typical of the nation of Israel. Acts 13 marks the start of her blindness. And notice that the deputy in Acts 13:12, a Gentile, responds to the doctrine(reconciliation of Gentiles), and is shown mercy, while a Jew is blinded.

Also notice that in this same chapter, 13:28-30, Paul puts forth the "outline" of 1 Cor. 15:1-4, the gospel of Christ-the death, burial, and resurrection:

Verse 13:28:"And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain." = the death of the Lord Jesus Christ

Verse 13:29: "And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre."=the burial of the Lord Jesus Christ

Verse 13:30: "But God raised him from the dead:..." =the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ

Who wrote this great book?!

As usual, per Acts 17:11, don't rely on my often faulty explanations. "Check it out", in the greatest book that will ever be written, to see "...whether those things were so..."

Perhaps this is not the proper "venue" to discuss. I can accept any brother, regardless of their dispensational point of view, as long as they affirm certain doctrinal principles(including the perfection of the word of God as a present possession). But, alas, this is an issue for another thread!


In and with Christ,

John M. Whalen

Originally Posted by JMWHALEN

Perhaps this is not the proper "venue" to discuss. I can accept any brother, regardless of their dispensational point of view, as long as they affirm certain doctrinal principles(including the perfection of the word of God as a present possession). But, alas, this is an issue for another thread!

Probably so, brother. But it's too late at night for me to dive into it with any coherence.

I have no doubt that you'll be getting plenty of responses, and that they'll probably dwarf any tiny wisdom I might have!