[George]

Aloha Stephanos,

I think that this is my first post in regards to any of your comments since you first joined this Forum; because, after reviewing a few of your initial posts I saw the futility of trying to engage you in conversation, or instruct or correct you. On the other hand, unlike gophgetter, you haven't "gone overboard" in promoting or pushing your peculiar doctrines - hence I saw no "need" in dealing with you.

However, I perceive that you have great difficulty in discerning between "destructive words" and admonishing, reproving, and rebuking (all acceptable Biblical methods of dealing with people - when they refuse to receive instruction or warnings). Look the words up in a Concordance (or Swordsearcher).

There is a time to meekly instruct: "those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;" [2Timothy 2:24-26]; and there is a time to: "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine." [2 Timothy 4:2] and "rebuke with all authority" [Titus 2:15]; and "rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith" [Titus 1:13].

Gophgetter came to this Forum "pushing" and "promoting" a false doctrine i.e. a HERESY. He was given ample time (and space - 7 THREADS in less than 3 weeks!) to see the error of his ways and repent of his doctrine, and when he refused to acknowledge his heresy, he had to be dealt with according to the Scriptures (Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject.) If you count the number of admonishments that the brethren gave gophgetter, you will find that we went far more than "the extra mile" in trying to show him the error of his way.

You may not "like" the Scriptural way of dealing with False Teachers and Heretics; but nonetheless, we are under an obligation to follow and obey the Holy Scriptures - NOT the Humanistic way of modern day psychiatry and psychology.

Here are some of your recent quotes (mostly in reply to brother Chette).

your confusing (another case of the I'm right your wrong mentality)

You use the word "mentality" in describing brother Chette's state of mind - I looked the word up in my Bible and, lo and behold, IT'S NOT THERE! But it is in every Humanistic Psychology book you can read. Are we, as Christians, supposed to use psychological terms when dealing with people or are we supposed to use Biblical terms? Hmmm?

I am not presuming anything Gods word is quite clear if you would spend more time reading it rather than the works of others (Again, the i'm right, your wrong mentality. You don't know me.

There you go AGAIN! There is no such things as a "wrong mentality" in the Scriptures, why don't you use scriptural terms - instead of Humanistic psychological terms?

so quit being so wicked (*sigh*) as to constantly attacking me (Chette, when will you realize that it is you that nearly always attacks me for something I say. I've been the one having to do the double take and defend myself against your attacks on the way I read the Holy Bible) for being prideful and buffed up. that is only your interperetation from your egotisitical point of veiw as you read my text. You show no grace at all my friend. (You've given me no room to) Get over yourself and learn for once. Only wicked people filled with bitterness attack people that way you do me. (perhaps if you quit calling me wrong at every turn, and presuming to know the ONLY way to rightly divide I would be more inclined to listen to you, instead of defending myself the way I've had to)

The fact that you cannot discern between brother Chette's attempts (futile as they may be) to instruct you; warn you; admonish you; and reprove you, and destructive words (meant to harm you; malign you; or put you down) shows a lack of spiritual understanding on your part - NOT his. ["Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" Galatians 4:16]

Also quit speaking for me I never said I am not willing to learn. the point is I already thought the way you do in the past and by the Holy Ghost I learned certain things. then instead of reinventing the wheel I discovered others had already laid the ground works to what I was learning by the Holy Ghost. Maturity is really lacking in your post towards me. (i'm sorry you feel this way Chette. I've tried reallyl hard to help you to see that I'm tired of the tone of your comments, and the constant "I'm right your wrong, LEARN THE ONLY WAY NOW" responses of yours but I'm finding it quite difficult)

It's instructive how you misinterpret brother Chette's attempts to instruct you in "the right way" as being: ""I'm right your wrong" (another Humanistic and Sophistical gimmick to deflect truth). You do know that there is a RIGHT WAY and there is a WRONG WAY, don't you? We are supposed to "RIGHTLY divide" God's word, and if brother Chette believes that you are not "rightly dividing" God's words, he may be trying to point out your erroneous "private interpretations" (out of love and concern), in order that you might come to the knowledge of the truth [2Timothy 2:24-26].

*sigh* I do not agree with how things have proceeded here. There is no wisdom in this. All I see are a bunch of people with stones in hand...

This is one of the most revealing statements you have made (in regards to your ability to spiritually discern Biblical issues). Your statement: "There is no wisdom in this." Just what kind of "Wisdom" are you referring to? - "worldly wisdom", or "Godly Wisdom" - do you know the difference? In regards to gophgetter - no one on this Forum was throwing stones (or preparing to throw stones) at the man. Your "metaphor" is off - it doesn't fit the circumstances; and it doesn't fit any kind of reasonable scriptural exegesis.

Gophgetter is a Heretic, there are no IF'S, AND'S, or BUT'S about the matter! And the Bible is real clear how we are to deal with Heretics. You will notice that the Lord Jesus Christ treated those who fell into "carnal" sins, i.e. sins of the flesh, quite differently ("go and sin no more" - John 8:11), than those people (Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, Religious leaders, etc.) who were guilty of sins of the spirit:

Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

There's plenty more where that came from. That doesn't sound like the "meek" and "mild" Jesus - ready to forgive everyone for anything that they may do, to me! Can't you see that the woman taken in adultery had sinned against her own body and God (a "heinous crime" to be sure [Job 31:9-12]), but on the other hand she hadn't caused other people to stumble and fall; or deceived others with a false doctrine; or persuaded others to believe a lie ("false doctrine"). Can't you see the difference?

Matthew 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

The Lord was far more concerned with "leaven" [Galatians 5:7-9] which has far reaching effects on multitudes than those carnal (fleshly) sins that basically affect only those who commit them.

Originally Posted by stephanos

I've moved on Chette, this isn't about me. I am not here to speak on my behalf, but on behalf of gophgetter who I'm concerned about. I don't think the way he was treated was good for him, and more importantly I think it has established a spirit here where if anyone doesn't agree with someone, all they have to do is throw around the word heretic enough times and uses verses like Romans 16:17 to get someone banned from the forums. There are those on these forums who attacked him quite violently (they know who they are...) and these folks above all concern me. These folks are sowing seeds of animosity which I'd rather not see bear fruit on these forums. Ultimately I believe things could have been handled differently. Perhaps I'm wrong, and I haven't been privy to private discussions etc, but with what I have to go on, I feel is enough to indicate that there was a chance to help the fellow see the error in his thinking. Am I wrong? Was there no hope in helping gophgetter?

Stephen

From the time you joined this Forum up until now I have seen (from your Threads, Posts, and comments) that there is not that much "profit" in dealing with you. However, I did notice that after gophgetter joined the Forum that you were "emboldened" to speak out, not only in his defense, but in defense of his false doctrine, i.e. "heresy". And hence this reply.

Ask yourself - WHY? Why are you "concerned" about gophgetter? (He was given every opportunity to see the error of his ways). Was it because of your mis-guided (Scripturally speaking) "concern" for the man, or is it because you are in "agreement" with the heresy (false doctrine) that he was promoting, and are disappointed with the outcome on this Forum - The refutation of his "false doctrine" by several of the brethren, and his eventual "banning".

If the "doctrine" he was promoting is heresy (false doctrine), then he is found to be a "false teacher" and an heretic. Are we to go against the Scriptural commandment on how to deal with heretics and continue to involve ourselves with foolish questions that gender strifes? [2 Timothy 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.] Are we to continue with profane and vain babblings that increase to more ungodliness? [2 Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.] Are we to consent to unwholesome words and false doctrines? Are we to continue doting about questions and stifes of words? Are we to continue with perverse disputings - without profit? I trow not!

1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Gophgetter was given every opportunity to turn from his evil way (heresy) and he refused. And not only that, but he relentlessly promoted his false doctrine without letup. He was dealt with the way the Holy Scriptures say we are to deal with false teachers and heretics. We did not deal with him as you have wrongly perceived: "all they have to do is throw around the word heretic enough times and uses verses like Romans 16:17 to get someone banned from the forums." No one threw "around the word heretic" carelessly - I for one did not call for banning him, I just decided (after trying to "reason" with him) not to have anything more to do with him, personally.

There are some brethren on this Forum who I have "disagreed" with on occasion, whom I still count as brothers (and sisters) in Christ, however, there is a difference between having a difference of opinion on a Biblical issue and out-and-out promotion of heresy. Once a false teacher or heretic declares himself - I refuse to have anything to do with him (or her). All heretics are guilty of: "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." [2 Timothy 3:7] and unless God gets a hold of their hearts, minds, and consciences, there is nothing I can do or say that will change them.

[George]

Originally Posted by peopleoftheway

Regarding gophgetter, I do not think that any man on this forum would have been able to change his mind regarding the eternal salvation issues, scripture fully supporting the doctrine of eternal salvation was given to him, and it was countered by misapplied and misinterpreted scripture, there was no give. I completely agree with Brandon in the fact that he only seemed to join to propagate the heresy of eternal salvation and his mind was fixed in one direction, as was his heart, loss of salvation. Now I done a quick search for gophgetter on the net and found a few sites that he is also on, and one of them he shares his testimony. From what I read it seems to me that gophgetter has some charismatic beliefs, ie the receiving of the Holy Ghost as it happened in Acts, which would explain the loss of salvation heresy. I will put the link here if anyone cares to view.

http://www.mychurch.org/blog/192449/My-Testimony

Aloha brother,

I appreciate the info on "gophgetter" and his "personal testimony". IF he didn't receive the Holy Ghost when he was first "saved" (his own testimony), then he wasn't saved! Then again, IF he was genuinely saved, he received the Holy Spirit and wasn't aware of it. Either way - the question arises - Just what kind of "spirit" did he receive years later? Hmmm?

[peopleoftheway]

Yes George Brother, exactly. I have had charismatics tell me that unless the Holy Ghost is working the way they describe then I am not saved at all, but I have watched how these people behave, barking, mooing, crying screaming being slain in the spirit, washed in the presence of god. I have been taken of my feet and rendered helpless by spirits (through drugs) and the descriptive that the Charismatics give is exactly the same, except its claimed in the name of our LORD Jesus Christ. It is kundalini, it is not of God and it is most certainly familiar.
I have been saved from these familiar spirits through Christ's precious Blood and his glorious Grace, I have been saved from this for a purpose, to discern familiar spirits that I yielded to in my own self destruction when I was not right with the LORD.
People need to grasp that this kind of thing is letting "feelings" get in the way of things that are spiritual, its wanting it all "right now" asking for "fire to fall" etc is dangerous. I change day by day through grace, through knowledge and patience and study of Gods word, learning and changing to a life more like Christ, this is my evidence of the Holy Spirit of God working in my life, not some amped up supercharged NEED to physically feel God.
I get closer to my God through his word and the understanding of it.

[George]

Aloha brother,

I wholeheartedly agree! Amen & amen!

[stephanos]

George, although I should make a defense in regards to some of the things you've said about me I, however, will not. Things are out of hand here, and I don't want to be a part of this debate and strife anymore. This is the reason I chose not to be so adamant in regards to my stance on dispensationalism. I knew this was innevitalbe when you all realized where I stood. I'm done George, I'm not going to do this anymore.

Concerning gophgetter, I suppose the one thing I didn't really digest is the fact that he was so new here and came with an agenda. I suppose if I was in your shoes (and brandons, after reading the FAQ he linked me to) I would have done the same thing. I have had to call people on their heresies before, so don't think I'm against calling things as they are.

Peace and Love,
Stephen