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#21
09-30-2008, 06:57 PM
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My research shows the pre-trib deception comes through the Roman Catholic Church.To answer your question.Do I think those who put their hope in the pre-trib rapture deceived by satan?Let me see what the definition of deception is? Main Entry: de·ceive Function: verb Pronunciation: di-'sev Inflected Form(s): de·ceived ; de·ceiv·ing Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French deceivre, from Latin decipere, from de- + capere to take -- more at HEAVE transitive senses 1 archaic : ENSNARE 2 a obsolete : to be false to b archaic : to fail to fulfill 3 obsolete : CHEAT 4 : to cause to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid 5 archaic : to while away intransitive senses : to practice deceit ; also : to give a false impression <appearances can deceive> - de·ceiv·er noun - de·ceiv·ing·ly/-'se-vi[ng]-le/ adverb synonyms DECEIVE , MISLEAD , DELUDE , BEGUILE mean to lead astray or frustrate usually by underhandedness. DECEIVE implies imposing a false idea or belief that causes ignorance, bewilderment, or helplessness <tried to deceive me about the cost>. MISLEAD implies a leading astray that may or may not be intentional <I was misled by the confusing sign>. DELUDE implies deceiving so thoroughly as to obscure the truth <we were deluded into thinking we were safe>. BEGUILE stresses the use of charm and persuasion in deceiving <was beguiled by false promises>. I cant say those that believe in a pre-trib are being deceived by satan.I can honestly say,after my research and what saith the Scripture`s is that I was being deceived by some Godly,honest brethren in the Lord. Hitler himself said,tell a lie long enough it will be believed as the truth,no matter what the evidence shows,or some-thing similar. All deception is of satan though,because God`s Word says,satan is a liar and the father of lies {John 8:44}KJV |
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#22
09-30-2008, 08:07 PM
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Proverbs 12:5 The thoughts of the righteous are right: but the counsels of the wicked are deceit. The two do NOT go hand in hand, an Honest Christian who by all means would be righteous, as Christ imputed his righteousness to US, so we cannot say on one hand a man is being honest and deceitful at the same time. Proverbs 12:17 He that speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: but a false witness deceit. Again the Word Of God shows us that false witness is deceit. Proverbs 26:24 He that hateth dissembleth with his lips, and layeth up deceit within him; 25 When he speaketh fair, believe him not: for there are seven abominations in his heart. 26 Whose hatred is covered by deceit, his wickedness shall be shewed before the whole congregation. You said that you cannot say that the pre-tribulation believers are being deceived by satan, yet you say that you were being deceived by Godly brethren and then you said all deceit is from satan, so you are saying by your own words, pre-tribulation believers are in deception of satan. That is all I wanted to know Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I am in no way trying to malign here, I simply cannot abide christians saying that other christians are DECEIVED BY SATAN. I don't agree with your doctrine, but yet I do not think YOU are deceived by satan, I think you are deceived by your own heart and by your own understanding. Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Mid trib, Post trib were spawned through Philosophy I will accept your stand on your doctrine, and I will not engage you again on any matter concerning this. |
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#23
09-30-2008, 08:20 PM
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I understand.Pre-Trib hasn`t a leg to stand on unless you ignore {2nd Peter 1:20}I simply believe what the Bible says about Christ return which is post-trib,which was believed until roughly 200 years ago.The Baptist prior to the 1800`s were post trib and history proves this. God bless. |
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#24
10-01-2008, 02:42 AM
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#25
10-01-2008, 05:41 AM
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2 plans?
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No Bible Student the Bible is very clear.Dispensationalism has divided fleshly Israel and the Church,which pre-1800`s was unknown in eschatology.There is only one plan of God,through by the new birth in Christ.Dispensationalism ignores [2nd Peter 1:20]KJV.Dont take my word for it,God`s Word supports the following.See John Hagee is so desperate that he thinks fleshly Israel has unconditional promises and salvation without Christ.The Bible KJV refutes Hagee`s heresies.Every promise made to fleshly Israel was conditional through their obedience by the faith of Abraham.Who was the seed of Abraham that all the nations of the earth were to be blessed?[Gen 12:1-3]Christ.Read Galatians chapter 2 slowly. Old Testament Titles And Attributes of Israel Which Are, In The New Testament, Referred To The Christian Church Titles and attributes are in bold type so that the reader may notice them more easily. The surrounding (non-bold) verses are included so that the context may be examined. These Scripture passages demonstrate that the Christian Church is Israel now because of the fact that the Old Testament titles and attributes of Israel are applied en masse to the Church in the New Testament. Where available, we have also included various Old and New Testament scriptures which deny these same titles and attributes to disobedient Israel. THE BELOVED OF GOD Israel Is Beloved Of God Exod 15:13-16 / Deut 33:1-4 / Ezra 3:10-11 ************************************************** ************** Some may be confused by the use of the word "forever" in this passage, and may come to the conclusion that God's love for Israel is unconditional. However, this is clearly not the case, unless we say that Scripture contradicts itself, for, in the following section, we will examine Scripture which states that God hates Israel when Israel is in a state of disobedience. To further illustrate the Scripture's interpretation of the word "forever", please refer to 1Sam 2:30 (see below), where the same word is used. ************************************************** ************** Disobedient Israel Is Not Beloved Of God Lev 26:28,30 / Jer 12:8 / Jer 16:5 / Hos 9:15 / Amos 9:7 / Mat 3:7 / Phil 3:2 / 1Thess 2:14-16 / Titus 1:10 The Christians Are Beloved Of God Rom 9:25 / Eph 5:1 / Col 3:12 / 1John 3:1 THE CHILDREN OF GOD Israelites Are The Children Of God Exod 4:22 / Deut 14:1 / Isa 1:2,4 / Isa 63:8 / Jer 31:9 / Hos 11:1 Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Children Of God Deut 32:5 / John 8:39,42,44 ************************************************** ************** Moses states in Deut 32:5 that Israelites who "act courruptly toward" God are "no longer his [God's] children." And Jesus says that Israelites who do evil things are in reality children of the Devil, not of God. ************************************************** ************** The Christians Are The Children Of God John 1:12 / John 11:52 / Rom 8:14,16 / 2Cor 6:18 / Gal 3:26 / Gal 4:5-7 / Phil 2:15 / 1John 3:1 THE FIELD OF GOD Israel Is The Field Of God Jer 12:10 The Christians Are The Field Of God 1Cor 3:9 THE FLOCK OF GOD AND OF THE MESSIAH Israel Is The Flock Of God And Of The Messiah Pss 78:52 / Pss 80:1 / Isa 40:11 / Jer 23:1-3 / Jer 31:10 / Ezek 34:12,15-16 / Zech 10:3 / Mic 5:4 ************************************************** ************** This passage refers to the nation of Israel as the flock of the Messianic King, that is, the Christ. (Here it is worth pointing out that the term "Messiah" is Hebrew for "Anointed One". The common designation "Christ" is just the Greek equivalent of "Messiah", as both "Christ" and "Messiah" mean the same thing.) ************************************************** ************** The Christians Are The Flock Of God And Of The Messiah John 10:14,16 / Heb 13:20 / 1Pet 2:25 / 1Pet 5:2-3 THE HOUSE OF GOD Israel Is The House Of God Num 12:7 The Christians Are The House Of God 1Tim 3:15 / Heb 3:2,5-6 / Heb 10:21 / 1Pet 4:17 THE KINGDOM OF GOD Israel Is The Kingdom Of God Exod 19:6 / 1Chr 17:14 / 1Chr 28:5 Disobedient Israel Is Not The Kingdom Of God Mat 8:11-12 / Mat 21:43 The Christians Are The Kingdom Of God Rom 14:17 / 1Cor 4:20 / Col 1:13 / Col 4:11 / Rev 1:6 THE PEOPLE OF GOD The Israelites Are The People Of God Exod 6:7 / Deut 27:9 / 2Sam 7:23 / Jer 11:4 Disobedient Israelites Are Not The People Of God Hos 1:9 / Jer 5:10 ************************************************** ************** Though many people have the impression that the Jews are the people of God, yet these verses from the Old Testament demonstrate that if a Jew does what is evil in the sight of the Lord, he is not a member of the people of God. ************************************************** ************** The Christians Are The People Of God Rom 9:25 / 2Cor 6:16 / Eph 4:12 / Eph 5:3 / 2Thess 1:10 / Titus 2:14 THE PRIESTS OF GOD The Israelites Are The Priests Of God Exod 19:6 Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Priests Of God 1Sam 2:28,30 / Lam 4:13,16 / Ezek 44:10,13 / Hos 4:6 / ************************************************** ************** Some people think that if God says that someone is a priest, he is always a priest. This view is seen to be incorrect. Sin results in the person's disqualification from the priesthood (1Sam 2:30). When the priests of Ezekiel's time "went astray", they ceased to be priests (Ezek 44:13). When the nation of Israel rejected the knowledge of God, God rejected Israel as his priests (Hos 4:6). This would dispose of the view that Israel had, or has, an unconditional covenant with God for the priesthood. ************************************************** ************** Mal 2:2,4,8-9 ************************************************** ************** Note that the message of Malachi to the priests of Israel is that they must repent, or God will discontinue his "covenant with Levi." Since the Levitical priesthood hasn't existed for the past 1900 years, which is longer than it existed (c. 1600 years), it evidently was cancelled by God due to the sins of the people and priests of Israel. ************************************************** ************** The Christians Are The Priests Of God 1Pet 2:5,9 / Rev 1:6 / Rev 5:10 THE VINEYARD OF GOD Israel Is The Vineyard Of God Isa 5:3-5,7 / Jer 12:10 The Christians Are The Vineyard Of God Luke 20:16 ************************************************** ************** Jesus here tells the people of Israel that when "the son of the vineyard owner" (Jesus) is killed by "the tenants" (the Jews), that "the owner of the vineyard" (God) will "give the vineyard to others" (that is, the righteous among the Gentiles). This does not prove that the Jews cannot be part of the vineyard. It means that the vineyard ("Israelite status") is now given without regard to racial descent. ************************************************** ************** THE WIFE (OR BRIDE) OF GOD Israel Is The Wife (Or Bride) Of God Isa 54:5-6 / Jer 2:2 / Ezek 16:32 / Hos 1:2 Dosobedient Israel Is Not The Wife (Or Bride) Of God Jer 3:8 / Hos 2:2 ************************************************** ************** Much is made of the fact that Israel "is the bride of God himself." What is not referred to is the Biblical fact that if Israel is in a state of sin (such as rejecting the Christ) they are divorced from God. The Church is now the wife of Christ (who is, as we know from the Old and New Testaments, God). ************************************************** ************** The Christians Are The Wife (Or Bride) Of God 2Cor 11:2 / Eph 5:31-32 THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM The Israelites Are The Children Of Abraham 2Chr 20:7 / Pss 105:6 / Isa 41:8 Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Children Of God John 8:39 / ************************************************** ************** Jesus in this passage agrees that the people he is talking with were physically descendants of Abraham. Yet in the eyes of God this counted for nothing if they desired to kill Jesus, "a man who told the truth he heard from God." On the contrary, to be regarded as the true sons of Abraham, one must "do the things Abraham did." ************************************************** ************** Rom 9:6-7 / ************************************************** ************** Most people think of the Jews as the children of Abraham. Yet Scripture records that Abraham had many other children besides Isaac, through whom the Jews trace their lineage (a fact which is greatly open to dispute). In Gen 16:16, Abraham had a son by Hagar, and in Gen 25:1-2, Abraham is said to have had six more sons by Keturah, another wife of his. Yet God stated to Abraham that the descendants of Abraham would be reckoned through Isaac, the child born to Abraham through faith in God. Paul says that this fact demonstrates that the true children of Abraham are reckoned as those who have the faith of Abraham, not those who can trace mere physical descent from Abraham. ************************************************** ************** Gal 4:25,30 ************************************************** ************** Paul, quoting God in Genesis, says that those who are merely Jews by racial descent have no share in the inheritance of the true sons of Abraham, that is, the Christians. ************************************************** ************** The Christians Are The Children Of Abraham Rom 4:11,16 / Gal 3:7,29 / Gal 4:23,28,31 ************************************************** ************** We can see from these verses that the true sons of Abraham are those who have the faith of Abraham, those who belong to Christ. ************************************************** ************** THE CHOSEN PEOPLE The Israelites Are The Chosen People Deut 7:7 / Deut 10:15 / Deut 14:2 / Isa 43:20-21 Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Chosen People Deut 31:17 / 2Kgs 17:20 / 2Chr 25:7 / Pss 78:59 / Jer 6:30 / Jer 7:29 / Jer 14:10 The Christians Are The Chosen People Col 3:12 / 1Pet 2:9 ************************************************** ************** Sadly, if people today would be asked, "According to the Bible, who are the chosen people?", we suspect that most would answer: "The Jews, of course!" By this, they would mean those persons who are racially Jews, or those who are followers of Judaism. This shows the sorry state of affairs which exists when the Bible is not studied, because the Bible states that the Christians are the chosen people, chosen not because of racial descent or following the traditions of the Rabbis, but because of faith in and obedience to God. ************************************************** ************** THE CIRCUMCISED The Israelites Are The Circumcised Gen 17:10,13 / Judg 15:18 ************************************************** ************** Samson calls the Philistines by the name of "the uncircumcised", by which it may be deduced that the Israelites regarded themselves as "the circumcised." ************************************************** ************** Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Circumcised Jer 9:25-26 / Rom 2:25,28 / Phil 3:2 The Christians Are The Circumcised Rom 2:29 / Phil 3:3 / Col 2:11 ISRAEL Israel Is Israel ************************************************** ************** As it is obvious that in the Old Testament Israel is Israel, we have not included any Scripture in this first section. ************************************************** ************** Disobedient Israelites Are Not Israelites Num 15:30-31 / ************************************************** ************** God here declares that any Israelite who sins defiantly against the word of the Lord must be "cut off from his people." That is, if an Israelite deliberately disobeys the word of God, he is no longer to be regarded as an Israelite, in spite of the fact that some believe in an "unconditional" covenant of God with Israel. ************************************************** ************** Deut 18:19 / ************************************************** ************** God says in this passage that he is going to send a mighty prophet to Israel, who will arise from among the people of Israel, and will be just like Moses. God himself will tell this prophet what to say to Israel, and when he comes to Israel, the Israelites must obey him or "be called to account," that is, be cut off from membership in Israel. (This is the penalty for disobeying the word of the Lord: Num 15:31, above.) Some people say that this passage does not refer to an individual prophet to come, but rather to any prophet at all. This is seen to be incorrect by the fact that right after Moses, Joshua (who was a prophet, Josh 6:26; 1Kgs 16:34) led Israel, yet Deuteronomy says "Since [Moses' death], no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses..." Therefore, the Deuteronomy passage must refer to an individual great prophet who would arise and lead Israel. ************************************************** ************** Acts 3:23 / ************************************************** ************** Peter the Apostle declares to Israel that the prophet who was to come according to Deut 18:18-19 is none other than Jesus. Further, Peter informs the Jews that any Jew who does not listen to Jesus "will be completely cut off from among his people." This passage explicitly proves that any Jewish person who rejects the words of Jesus is not to be regarded as a member of the nation of Israel. ************************************************** ************** Rom 9:6 The Christians Are Israel John 11:50-52 / ************************************************** ************** Caiaphas the High Priest prophesied that Jesus would die "for the people [of Israel]". John, interpreting the prophecy, says that this was a prophecy of Christ dying for "the scattered [Gentile] children of God". Therefore since the crucifixion, both Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ are members of "the people of Israel". ************************************************** ************** 1Cor 10:1 / ************************************************** ************** Paul, talking to Gentile Christians at Corinth, speaks of the Israelites who crossed the Red Sea as "our forefathers"! How is this possible unless the Corinthian Gentile believers in Christ were regarded by Paul as part of the nation of Israel? ************************************************** ************** Gal 6:15-16 / ************************************************** ************** The real "Israel of God" are those who come to Christ, not those who are merely circumcised. ************************************************** ************** Eph 2:12,19 ************************************************** ************** Paul says that before the Gentile believers came to Christ, they were "excluded from citizenship in Israel". But, through submitting themselves to Christ, these same Gentiles have become "fellow citizens with God's people". Therefore, all people, whether of Jewish or Gentile descent, who come to Christ, are now members of the true nation of Israel. ************************************************** ************** JERUSALEM Jerusalem Is The City And Mother Of Israel Pss 149:2 / Isa 12:6 / Isa 49:18,20,22 / Isa 51:18 / Lam 4:2 Jerusalem Is The City And Mother Of Christians Gal 4:26 / ************************************************** ************** Paul says that Jerusalem is the Mother of the Christians. Therefore, the Christians are the true sons of Zion, as opposed to the sons of Judaistic Zion, who are slaves, according to Paul. ************************************************** ************** Heb 12:22 THE JEWS Israelites Are Jews Ezra 5:1 / Jer 34:8-9 / Zech 8:22-23 Disobedient Israelites Are Not Jews Rom 2:28 / Rev 2:9 / Rev 3:9 Christians Are Jews Rom 2:29 THE NEW COVENANT The New Covenant Is With Israel Jer 31:31,33 The New Covenant Is With The Christians Luke 22:20 / 1Cor 11:25 / 2Cor 3:6 / Heb 8:6,8,10 AN OLIVE TREE Israel Is An Olive Tree Jer 11:16 / Hos 14:6 The Christians Are An Olive Tree Rom 11:24 ************************************************** ************** The Olive Tree under discussion in Rom 11 is clearly Israel, for it is called "their [Israel's] own olive tree"! Note that Christians of Gentile descent are now part of the tree (Israel), while Jews who have no faith in the Christ have been broken off, as Rom 11:20 says. So, it may be observed that being a true Israelite in the eyes of God depends upon whether one has faith, and is entirely disconnected with a racial background. ************************************************** ************** -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SECTION 2 Old Testament Verses Referring To Israel Which Are Quoted In The New Testment As Referring To The Christians The quotes themselves are in bold type [in the original book - TI] to call the reader's attention to them. The surrounding (non-bold) verses are included so that the context may be examined. These verses demonstrate that the New Testament regards the Church as Israel, because of the fact that Old Testament "Israelite" verses are repeatedly quoted as referring to Christians. QUOTE #1: Lev 26:11-12 / Ezek 37:27 / 2Cor 6:16 ************************************************** ************** Both the Leviticus and the Ezekiel passages prophesy a time when the Israelites will obey God. God will, in return, bless Israel by making them his people, and by putting his dwelling place among them. In Moses' and Ezekiel's times, this meant that God was going to put a literal temple inside the territory of Israel, and live there. But we see Paul in 2 Corinthians (writing to Gentile Christians who lived in Greece!) applying the prophecies to the Church of Christ. How can this be, unless Paul regards the Christians as the real Israel of God, now under a covenant which has no need for stone and wood temples, or for genealogical restrictions? God does not live in stone buildings any longer, but lives in believers. His blessings are not restricted to the geographical boundaries of a little country in the Middle East, but spread to the whole world! So God fulfills the prophecies of Moses and Ezekiel, but in a non-racial, non-geographical, non-material-building sort of way! ************************************************** ************** QUOTE #2: Deut 30:12-14 / Rom 10:6-8 ************************************************** ************** Paul in Romans takes a passage of Scripture in Deuteronomy which is addressed to Israel and applies it to the Christians. (Some may wonder at the interpretation Paul puts upon the Deuteronomy passage, but upon closer study it may be cleared up. In context, when Paul uses the term "Christ" in Rom 10:6-7, he means "the system of doctrine taught by Christ." Paul uses the same type of terminology when he talks of "preaching Christ" in Phil 1:15.) Paul is in the Romans passage demonstrating that it is not beyond the reach of Gentiles to be saved from sin. He proves this by referring to the passage in Deuteronomy where Moses assures the Israelites that it is not beyond their reach to be saved from sin and death. This passage only makes sense if the Christians (both Jews and Gentiles) are regarded by Paul as true members of Israel. Otherwise, Paul seems to be guilty of gross distortion of Scripture. ************************************************** ************** QUOTE #3: Deut 31:6 / Heb 13:5 ************************************************** ************** The author of Hebrews tells the Christians to avoid discontent by realizing that God will never leave or forsake them. But where does he get this comforting statement? From the book of Deuteronomy, where Moses tells the Israelites that God will never leave or forsake the Israelites! Therefore, for the New Testament to make sense, we must suppose that to the author of Hebrews, the Christians were true Israelites. By the way, someone might say, "But the Deuteronomy verses state that God would never leave or forsake the Israelites, so how do you explain your idea that God actually did forsake 'Racial Israel' and replace it with the Church?" To which we would reply with a Scripture passage from the same chapter as our comforting Deuteronomy verse, namely, Deut 31:16-17: "And the Lord said to Moses: 'You are going to rest with your fathers, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I make with them. On that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed.'" So, unless we say that God contradicts himself, we must come to the conclusion that the promise of God to "never forsake" Israel was (from the very beginning) conditional upon Israel's obedience to God. And so it is with Christians. As long as we obey God, we may be assured that God is always with us. ************************************************** ************** QUOTE #4: Deut 32:36 / Pss 135:14 / Heb 10:30 ************************************************** ************** Deuteronomy and Psalms both assure the Israelites that God will judge "his people" the Israelites. Hebrews warns the Christians that God will judge "his people" the Christians! ************************************************** ************** QUOTE #5: Pss 22:22 / Heb 2:12 ************************************************** ************** In Pss 22, the Christ is prophesied to "declare God's name to his brothers" who are Israelites. Yet the author of Hebrews says that the Christ's brothers are "those who are made holy" (Heb 2:11), that is, Christians! Once again, unless we concede that the quote in Hebrews is woefully out of context, we must conclude that the Church is Israel according to the New Testament. ************************************************** ************** QUOTE #6: Pss 44:22 / Rom 8:36 ************************************************** ************** Paul quotes a verse which talks about the persecution of Israelites and refers it to Christians undergoing tribulations. ************************************************** ************** QUOTE #7: Pss 95:7-11 / Heb 3:7-11 QUOTE #8: Pss 130:8 / Titus 2:14 QUOTE #9: Isa 28:16 / ************************************************** ************** Note that this verse says that the "stone", the "tested stone", the "chief cornerstone" (that is, the Messiah) will be a sure foundation IN ZION. The New Testament is quite fond of this verse, using it at least three times in the following passages. However, instead of locating the fulfillment of the passage in Palestine, the fulfillment is seen to be in the entire world among Christians of Jewish and Gentile origin. How is this possible unless Zion is now devoid of all geographical connotations, and refers to the Church? ************************************************** ************** Rom 10:11 / Eph 2:20 / 1Pet 2:6 QUOTE #10: Isa 49:8 / 2Cor 6:2 ************************************************** ************** In 2 Corinthians, Paul quotes Isa 49:8 to tell the Corinthians that right now is the proper time to be concerned about salvation. The interesting thing about this quote is that Isa 49 is about the coming of the Christ, and in Isa 49:8, God promises to answer the requests of the Christ and help him in the "day of salvation." In the same verse, God also promises to "restore the land" of Israel and "reassign its desolate inheritances." Verse after 49:8 talk about the regathering of the Israelites to the desolation of Israel, which then prospers and is comforted by God. Now, is this what happened in the times of Christ and the Apostles? No, it was not. The literal land of Israel was devastated during two massive wars, and finally the Jews were expelled from Jerusalem altogether. How is it possible, then, for Paul to say that Isa 49 referred to the times in which he lived? Because when the passage is taken away from 'Racial Israel' and given to the Israel of God, it is talking about the building up of Spiritual Zion, the Church. It is talking about repairing the desolate spots of the world by conversion to Christ. Wherever a conversion to Christ takes place, there a "captive" is set free, as Isa 49:9 says. ************************************************** ************** QUOTE #11: Isa 52:7 / Rom 10:15 ************************************************** ************** Isaiah the prophet prophesies a time when the "good news" (the gospel) will be proclaimed to Jerusalem (Isa 52:7). But let us look at this "good news" more closely. In Isa 52:1, we are told that the uncircumsized will not enter into Zion. In Isa 52:2, we see that the enslaved Israelites will be freed. The Lord will return to Zion (Isa 52:8), and the ruins of Jerusalem will be rebuilt. All this may be seen by reading our Old Testament selection. But Paul quotes Isa 52:7 and refers it to those who spread the "good news" about Jesus the Christ. In Isaiah, the messengers go to desolate Jerusalem, and in the New Testament, the messengers go into the world of sinners, resulting in conversion! Once again, Paul has stripped the Isaiah passage of its geography and its race-consciousness, and referred it to the New Israel, the Christian Church. Further, it is the spiritually uncircumcised who are not allowed into the Church of God, and the physical member no longer has anything to do with entering into Jerusalem. ************************************************** ************** QUOTE #12: Isa 54:1 / Gal 4:27 ************************************************** ************** Isaiah prophesies a time when Zion will greatly expand, and will conquer foreign nations (Isa 54:2). Paul says that the passage refers to the Heavenly Zion (the Christian Church) which is having many children. Once again, a passage in the Old Testament has been taken from "Racial Israel" (because of sin, as we learn from other passages) and applied to Christians. ************************************************** ************** QUOTE #13: Jer 31:31-34 / Heb 8:8-12 ************************************************** ************** Jeremiah the prophet says that the Mosaic Covenant will be discarded in his future because of continued Israelite disobedience to God (Jer 31:32). In place of this covenant God will make a "new covenant" (Jer 31:31). And with whom does God make this covenant? With "the house of Israel and the house of Judah"! Even the New Testament quotes that part of the prophecy, and yet refers the prophecy to the Christians! Again, how is this possible, unless the author of Hebrews viewed the Christians as the true Israel? ************************************************** ************** QUOTE #14: Hos 1:10 & Hos 2:23 / Rom 9:25-26 / 1Pet 2:10 ************************************************** ************** In Hoseah, God announces that the people of Israel, due to sin, are not the people of God any longer. However, God hasn't finished with Israel yet, and prophesies a time in the future in which the Israelites will again be called people of God (Hos 1:10, 2:23). Paul and Peter both quote the Hosea passages as referring to Gentiles who became converts to Christ, a position which is impossible to hold unless the privileges of Israel now apply to anyone, regardless of physical descent, so long as he or she is willing to repent and obey God's word. So, the Church is the real Israel now. ************************************************** ************** QUOTE #15: Hos 13:14 / 1Cor 15:55 ************************************************** ************** Many people quote Paul's passage on the resurrection, "Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death is your sting?", without realizing where this saying comes from. Its origin is in Hos 13:14, where it refers to God resurrecting Israelites from the grave, the land of the dead. However, in 1 Corinthians, Paul uses it to prove the resurrection of those who inherit the kingdom of God, that is, the believers in Christ. It is not possible to get this proof out of Hos 13:14, unless we presuppose that the Christian Church is now the Israel of God. ************************************************** ************** QUOTE #16: Joel 2:32 / Rom 10:13 ************************************************** ************** Joel the prophet says that "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." A lot of people know this phrase, but know it only from Rom 10:13. Notably, Joel gives the location of where people will call upon the Lord: "on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem," places which are quite remote from Rome, where the people Paul was writing to lived. Paul makes no sense applying this passage to Christians, unless (once again!) this passage has been taken from "Racial Israel" and now belongs to true Israel, that is, the Church. ************************************************** ************** -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SECTION 3 Old Testament Ethical Commands To Israel Which Are Quoted In The New Testment As Applying To The Church The quotes themselves are in bold type [in the original book - TI] to call the reader's attention to them. The surrounding (non-bold) verses are included so that the context may be examined. These verses demonstrate that the New Testament regards the Church as Israel, because of the fact that Old Testament ethical commands to Israel are repeatedly quoted as referring to Christian rules of conduct. QUOTE #1: Exod 16:18 / 2Cor 8:15 ************************************************** ************** What is stated as a fact regarding the gathering of manna by Israel is regarded as a standard for Christian charity by the apostle Paul (!), and with not one word of explanation as to how this can be. How can Paul figure on the Corinthians accepting his exegesis, unless both he and they suppose the Christian Church to be the Israel of the New Testament? ************************************************** ************** QUOTE #2: Lev 11:45 & Lev 19:2 / 1Pet 1:16 ************************************************** ************** Peter instructs Christians to be holy in all actions, because of God stating to Israelites in Leviticus: "Be holy, because I am holy." Look at the sources for this declaration by God, and you will notice a surprising (or, perhaps, not so surprising!) circumstance. Namely, this declaration by God was used in order to instruct the Israelites about the seriousness of abstaining from unclean foods. In our second Leviticus passage, God says: "Be holy..." at least partially in regard to sabbath keeping, a command of God which is now abrogated (Col 2:16, at least in regard to the day of the week). We can see that, although the particular ceremonial rules of conduct have changed, the idea that Israel must be holy, because God is holy, is constant, Old or New Testament. ************************************************** ************** QUOTE #3: Deut 5:16 / Eph 6:2-3 ************************************************** ************** Paul quotes the commandment on honoring father and mother, and then the blessing of the commandment, from Deuteronomy. In Ephesians, however, the blessing is somewhat changed from the original. While in Deuteronomy God promises a long life in "the land the Lord your God is giving you," that is, in the land of Israel, Paul says that God promises a long life to anyone anywhere "on the earth," an interesting fact in that the Church is non-geographical, as John 4:19-24 states. So the moral command of Deuteronomy is retained, but without the geographical qualifications! ************************************************** ************** QUOTE #4: Deut 17:7, 19:19, 22:24 & Deut 24:7 / 1Cor 5:13 ************************************************** ************** Paul quotes from an oft-repeated verse in Deuteronomy: "Expel the wicked man from among you," and, without a word of explanation, says to the Christians of the city of Corinth (a Gentile city) that this principle of Israel applies to them. ************************************************** ************** QUOTE #5: Deut 19:15 / 2Cor 13:1 / 1Tim 5:19 ************************************************** ************** Paul says that all offenses tried in a church court must be validated by two or three witnesses, which coincidentally is the same rule which was in effect in the courts of Old Testament Israel. ************************************************** ************** QUOTE #6: Isa 35:3 / Heb 12:12 ************************************************** ************** The author of Hebrews takes a passage which in Isaiah is referring to Israelites on the way to Zion, and refers it to Christians. ************************************************** ************** QUOTE #7: Isa 48:20 & Isa 52:11 / 2Cor 6:17 ************************************************** ************** The Prophet Isaiah tells the Israelites in Babylon to leave Babylon, touching no unclean thing and taking with them the temple vessels, to restart the worship of God in Jerusalem's temple. Paul says that the passage proves that Gentile converts to Chrisianity should leave the fellowship and institutions of paganism. Once again, Paul has quoted a verse greatly out of context, unless the Christians are Israel now. Last edited by broswmiller; 10-01-2008 at 06:01 AM. |
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#26
10-01-2008, 08:41 AM
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Who wrote that Loooooooooong post?
Long posts like that really to tend to confuse, especially on a forum when people log in and maybe have 20-30 minutes to look over certain subjects. I know that you didn't write all that post that you just shared, I would like you to tell me "who" did write what you have shared? Quit posting arguments from "someone else" when it is YOU that is supposed to be sharing your opinion on this forum. |
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#27
10-01-2008, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
 Just because same title are applied to both doesn't mean that both are the same. It takes a long post to defend a "private interpretation". The Church is ONE Body - there is NEITHER Jew nor Gentile. Israel is TWELVE Tribes. |
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#28
10-01-2008, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Bible student the Church is no private interpretation,and nowhere in the Old Testament will dispensationalism,find that the promises of God are outside of Christ.Nowhere in the New Testament will you find that fleshly Israel outside of Christ receiving the promises of God.Every promise to fleshly Israel was upon conditional promises [i.e.by faith in Messiah/Jesus Christ]they rejected Him and the remnant is Orthodox Believers in Jesus Christ.Those fleshy Israelites outside of Christ in unbelief are under the curse of God. God bless. Brother Miller. |
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