[Brother Tim]

Using your definition of sanctification, that is, the process of becoming righteous or growing in grace, then one must continue to progress toward sinlessness throughout life, or else be shown to have false faith?

P.S. Still need verses showing your definition.

[Brother Tim]

Also, please remember I am using the terms justification and sanctification as theological terms not a word for word linking with the scriptures.

That's too bad. It is a lot more useful to define words using Scripture rather than orthodoxy.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by ericwgreene

Here is my two cents...

Lordship salvation - repentance and faith, one must produce fruit after salvation
Moderate Free grace - repentance and faith, one SHOULD product fruit after salvation
Free Grade - faith, no expectation of fruit after salvation

I have never held to Free Grace. I used to hold to Moderate Free Grace. But, I now hold to Lordship salvation as I have defined above.

Lordship Salvation tends to be the Calvinistic position while Moderate Free Grace is the non-Calvinistic position.

You are only going by JM's stupid definitions. Stop defining people into little groups.

We are FREE GRACE. There is no such thing as MODERATE Free Grace. It's like saying "Inexpensive Free Grace" or "Cheap Free Grace" or "Almost Free Grace". It's a dumb title with no meaning, other than to define boundaries between Hodges Vs Macarthur.

As I said, Hodges isn't even teaching any gospel. 1 Cor 15:1-4 is the Gospel, and he thinks it is unnecessary.

So you define repentance as above.

Lordship salvation - repentance and faith, one must produce fruit after salvation

So, your doctrine is not really salvation, it's probation. One is saved "freely", but if one does not produce fruits, based on your (or Macarthurs) arbitrary guidelines, he was not really saved. This is the EXACT SAME teaching as Arminianism, with a twist

Arminians claim one can LOSE their salvation if they don't produce fruit
Calvinists claim they never had it.

Neither have eternal security.

Here is how the Mormons define repentance:

"Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and the Lord will remember them no more. By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins--behold, he will confess them and forsake them."

"Our Father in heaven does not sin, and He does not allow people who sin to live with Him. To live with Him, we must repent of our sins. To repent means to feel sorry for our sins and stop doing them."

"The forsaking of sin must be a permanent one. True repentance does not permit making the same mistake again"

"There is one crucial test of repentance. This is abandonment of the sin"

Brother, it seems to me you don't even know what repentance is.

You say "Repentance and Faith - one must produce fruits after salvation" - Basically, you are saying that repentance IS fruits. Or, to put it another way, Repentance IS works.

Repentance is as Ironside puts it. It is a turning, a turning to God, and it is a forsaking, forsaking our own righteousness and looking to Christ alone for salvation. It's nothing to do with forsaking sin. It's forsaking our own righteousness. You Lordship folks have abhorrent doctrine. You think that God will accept you if you forsake your sin and come with your own righteousness. Isaiah 64:6 friend.

I know that's a blatent misrepresentation, but it's a logical conclusion.

Here is an email I sent to a person some months ago about repentance.. It addresses some but not all of the discussion here.

Returning back to the original purpose of our discussion, I believe
you were concerned with my understanding of the word "repentance". If
memory serves correct, I defined it as a "turning away from sin" and
coupled it with faith in terms of a person receiving Christ as their
Savior. Your understanding of repentance was that it was a "change of
mind about Jesus" and that the change of mind occurred when a person
placed their faith in Christ. The primary difference between our two
views being that "repentance" does not mean a "turning away from sin".

To help prove your argument you cited the last verse of Acts 3.

Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him
to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

If memory serves correct and I understood your position, you believe
this passage supports the belief that "turning away from sin" is an
act of God and can only occur after a person is born again.
Therefore, according to your understanding "turning away from sin"
cannot be a condition of justification as the unregenerate person can
never turn from their sins. Furthermore, to require such a condition
is to add personal works to a person's justification thereby opposing
Sola Fide. Rather, you consider a "turning away from sin" to solely
be an act of sanctification.

Here are two points I would like you to consider:

1. "having raised up his Son Jesus" - I believe this phrase is
referring to the call of the gospel. The call of the gospel is that
God raised His Son from the dead. Peter is saying that God is using
the resurrection to turn people from their iniquity. To say it
another way, God is turning them from their iniquity through the call
of the gospel.

God sent the gospel message first to the Jews which is why Peter is
preaching this message to the people from Solomon's porch in the
temple. Granted, Peter is preaching on their condemnation for the
rejection and murder of the Messiah but notice what is written in
verse 19, "that your sins may be blotted out". All of their sins will
be blotted out, not just their rejection and murder of Jesus. If
repent meant just "change your mind about Jesus" then by implication
the phrase "that your sins may be blotted out" would only refer to
their sins of rejecting and murdering Jesus.

When one defines repentance as a change of mind about Jesus we imply
that men are only condemned for their rejection of Christ. Men are
not condemned just for their rejection of Jesus; rather, men are
condemned for all of their sins against God. John 3 makes this clear
as it says that we are condemned already, even if we do not hear the
call of the gospel. If men were only condemned for the rejection of
Christ then men would not be condemned already.

Returning to the Acts passage, Peter is focusing his preaching on
their violation of the sixth commandment, the rejection and murder of
Jesus Christ. By using the Law to speak to the people's consciences,
he is preparing them for the gospel message that God raised His Son
from the dead, so that people will turn from their iniquities (in
general) and place their faith in the Savior and have their iniquities
(all of them) blotted out.

In summary, through the call of the gospel, God will turn people from
their sins. So that when people respond to the gospel call, they will
repent (turn from their sins) and place their faith in the Jesus
Christ believing the gospel.

2. A few verses before the one you cited Peter commands the following:

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be
blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence
of the Lord;

Along with the passage from Mark that I referred to when we were
sitting at the table it is clear that God demands repentance. I
recognize that you do not deny the need for repentance but merely
challenge the view of it as a "turning away from sin". But I think
this passage shows us something interesting. Repent and converted are
listed separately. In order for a person to be justified they must
repent (turn from their sin) and place their faith in Jesus Christ
then they are converted (aka justified). In this passage, faith is
left out but when viewed within the entire context of Scripture,
repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin with only one side
specifically mentioned in this particular verse, yet with the whole
coin being present. When we repent (turn from our sin), we are at the
same time turning towards Jesus and placing our faith in Him.

Looking at the parable of sower... Of the four types of believers which ones were saved? I believe only the last one was saved. The true believer persisted to the end. The false believers at some point (persecution or worldly temptation) fell away.

Matthew 13:18-23Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

[Luke]

So you agree with the Mormons that repentance is a turning away from or forsaking of sin. Anyone that thinks this is not really trusting Jesus Christ, because they are getting rid of what they perceive to be stopping them from getting saved. Instead of denying their own righteousness, and falling upon the mercy of God, they try to set it up, and promise a commitment of full surrender to the Lord Jesus.

Good for you. I've always noted a connection between LS and the Cults.

I'm done.

[atlas]

Luke,

I'm done.

Agreed their is longer any need for any of to cast our pearls before the swine. I never tell anyone to ignore their problems. Usually this is a very bad idea and only compounnds the problem over time. However, with Eric " the apostate troll " this is the best thing to do.


Atlas

From the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession

This saving repentance is an evangelical grace, whereby a person, being by the Holy Spirit made sensible of the manifold evils of his sin, doth, by faith in Christ, humble himself for it with godly sorrow, detestation of it, and self-abhorrency, praying for pardon and strength of grace, with a purpose and endeavour, by supplies of the Spirit, to walk before God unto all well-pleasing in all things.
(Zechariah 12:10; Acts 11:18; Ezekiel 36:31; 2 Corinthians 7:11; Psalms 119:6; Psalms 119:128)

[Luke]

From the BIBLE

"repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God"

It's not just sin that keeps us from God Eric. It's because we are SINNERS. ALL our RIGHTEOUSNESSES are as FILTHY RAGS.

Repentance in relation to salvation is turning from trusting anything else, and trusting God.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by ericwgreene

(Zechariah 12:10; Acts 11:18; Ezekiel 36:31; 2 Corinthians 7:11; Psalms 119:6; Psalms 119:128)

Are you afraid to post the full verses?

Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Your error must be shown. Are you saying that Jesus has returned to Israel and they have accepted him as their messiah? Because that is the context of this verse. This is what your Amillennialism does to you. Replacement theology is garbage.

Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Repentance unto life, not repentance from sin. They turned from DEAD WORKS to LIFE in God. It's simple when you rightly divide the scriptures

Eze 36:31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
Eze 36:32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
Eze 36:33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.

Once again, a Millennial passage, FOR ISRAEL. Stop reading other peoples mail and thinking you have to pay their bills.

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

I assumed you meant verse 10 and not 11. But this is truth. No mention of repentance from sin. Repentance is defined in Hebrews 6:1

Psa 119:6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.


Um... okay. Where is the repentance here. The application for today is that when we walk before God as he leads by the spirit, we can not be ashamed.
Commandments is one of the seven names David gives the word of God in Psalm 119.

Here is an interesting verse for you brother - the exact same thing in the New Testament.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


Psa 119:128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.

Good good.. is hating every false way the way anyone gets saved?


Not a single one of those verses support the definition you gave of repentance. In fact, of the ones that are even about salvation, they support the (moderate) free grace view.

Bro, get your head out of the clouds. When God wants you up there, he'll take you.