[Steven Avery]

Hi Folks,

This is a continuation of the discussion at:

http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...9&postcount=13
Faith Is A Doctrine As Well As A Fuction!

In fact, for simplicity, here is the full discussion.

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

(One personal example: I have even tried to study out whether "faith in Christ" and "faith of Christ" in the King James Bible .. perfect translation doctrinally with the proper and significant distinction .. are simply properly reflecting the simple and true Greek grammar differentiation that is lost by many modern doofus scholars. Modern textcrit-seminarian scholarship becomes so confused that they can barely even understand the question, much less yet give the answer.)

Originally Posted by Truth4Today

This phrase (πιστεως Iησου Χριστoυ) as seen in (Rom. 3:22; Gal 2:16; 3:22) is distinct from the phrase (πιστεως εν Iησου Χριστoυ) as found in (Gal. 3:26). You must understand that there are two aspects to faith. One, is the Function of faith and is usually designated by the word “your” or something similar. Two, is the Doctrine of faith, which is usually found proceeded by the article “the”. An example of this is found in (Col. 1:23) “ If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;”. Here faith is referring to the doctrine/the gospel. Therefore, we can see that “faith of Jesus Christ” is in reference, NOT to the function of Christ’s faith nor even our function of faith, BUT to the doctrine of faith which Christ is the object of . See the same use of “of” in (Eph. 4:13; Phil. 1:27; 1Thess. 3:2).

================================================== ================

Thanks Truth4today. Just to be clear, I would first prefer to simply know if the English distinctions in the King James Bible are all seen in proper (not modernistic) analysis of the Greek. We may (or may not) agree on the doctrinal distinction you share on 'faith of Christ'. And the interpretative is a very proper discussion, alongside or after the grammatical and contextual translation issue. I am not trying to discourage the interpretative, not at all, since the doctrinal deficiency in the modern versions is extremely significant. However allow me first to emphasize the grammatical/translational.

Apparently in Greek the preposition is implied in some of the verses where the King James Bible has "faith of Christ". And modern versions often make those verses, almost a dozen of these verses, "faith in Christ" (I'll supply examples in a follow-up post) possibly because it fits their stagnant and one-dimensional doctrinal views.

What I am trying to determine is whether there is primarily only a subjective translational decision aspect to the dozen or so verses where modern versions have removed "faith of Christ" (ie. are they just doctrinally deficient). And whether it is a function of these versions not following classical/Biblical Greek (ie. the modern versions are also grammatically deficient). In the latter case they would be rejecting simple and proper translation to match their preferred doctrinal errors.

I hope I have expressed this distinction clear enough. The b-greek forum generally offered the "context only" view, without any real clarity. I have a sense they may be too trapped in modern Greek translation and version concepts, and have forest and trees difficulties. Perhaps the truth of the grammar is a bit too simple and clear for them to accept.

Originally Posted by Truth4Today

This phrase (πιστεως Iησου Χριστoυ) as seen in (Rom. 3:22; Gal 2:16; 3:22) is distinct from the phrase (πιστεως εν Iησου Χριστoυ) as found in (Gal. 3:26) ... the doctrine of faith which Christ is the object of . See the same use of “of” in (Eph. 4:13; Phil. 1:27; 1Thess. 3:2).

Yes, this is helpful, since Galatians 3:26 has the preposition directly indicating "in" (or by). There will be about two dozen verses to check to see how consistent is the Greek in this preposition application as expressed in the King James Bible. e.g. Is it simply true that without the preposition for "in" .. the translation can be expected to be "of" - unless there are specific alternate compelling factors ?

Continuing - I will try to use mostly the John Hurt Parallel Greek New Testament site and scripturetext.com and crosswalk.com. btw, readers, none of this is particularly hard at this level, even knowing zilch Greek. Greek grammar and English grammar seem to line up quite nicely.

Here are your three examples.

Ephesians 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith,
and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man,
unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ

enothta thV pistewV (thV - definite article)

Philippians 1:27
Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ:
that whether I come and see you, or else be absent,
I may hear of your affairs,
that ye stand fast in one spirit,
with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

pistei tou euaggeliou (tou - definite article)

1 Thessalonians 3:2
And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God,
and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ,
to establish you,
and to comfort you concerning your faith:

euaggeliw tou cristou (tou - definite article)

In looking at these examples, grammatically, they do seem to fit what is shared above. There is no specific Greek preposition, and the King James Bible has "faith of" or similar. As do the modern versions, since there are no doctrinal axes to be ground by a possible modification.

I will plan to share and study more on this in follow-up posts. There are a dozen or two verses to review and I need to divide this up into research segments.

Shalom,
Steven