[George]

Gord stated:

“I must say that this tread had me ask myself a lot of questions. I have spent the past 3 months reading and studying as much as I can on this topic. Brother George, as lot of the scripture references you provided especially on election, just didn't make any sense to me. {How didn’t they make sense to you? Where didn’t they make much sense to you? And Why didn’t they make much sense to you? You are disagreeing with me, but you haven’t given me any reasons other than it – “, just didn't make any sense to me.” }

When I read Paul's statement Ro*8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Ro*8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

To me, it means exactly what it says. I can not agree with any of the arguments of free will as that then mean MAN has some control of his salvation. {Did I ever say that it DID NOT “MEAN” WHAT IT SAID? If I did WHERE did I “say” that? “Generalities” mean nothing to me, for I have NO IDEA WHAT you are referring to.}

It seams to me Paul had this right long before Calvin was even born.

To make this easier for me, I have quoted the arguments of Dr. Keith Sherlin (Short Narrative) as he explains this far better than I ever could.”

Aloha brother Gord,

I am greatly disappointed that you did not choose to refute my points (one by one) with Scripture, rather than post some comments by some man who does not deal with my Post, but is presenting his own arguments in favor of Calvinism.

Here are some “QUOTES” from the “esteemed” Dr. Keith Sherlin:

All Bible Believers Admit the Bible Contains the Subject of Predestination/Election

I. The Words Election and Predestination are Found in the Bible. No person, especially a believer, can honestly read Scripture for long without coming across the words "election," and "predestination." To ignore that these words exist in the text of the Bible is to lie against the truth. We are not talking about definition of these words just yet. The first step is to simply admit that the Bible does indeed use such terminology. Here are some verses that simply use the terminology of elect, election, chosen, and predestination. "For many are called, but few are chosen" (Matt. 22:14 ESV). "And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short" (Matt. 24:22 ESV)."And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night" (Luke 18:7 NIV)? "I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen" (John 13:18a NASB)."You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit" (John 15:16a NKJV). "this man [Christ Jesus] delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23a NASB). "For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified" (Rom. 8:29-30 HCSB). "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call" (Rom. 9:11 ESV). "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will" (Eph. 1:4-5 NKJV)."Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" (1 Peter 1:1-2a NASB).

Did it “slip” your notice that the “esteemed doctor” quoted from FIVE (5) CORRUPT bibles? Am I to take what any man says seriously when he has NO FINAL AUTHORITY? If you were to ask this man for a “Definition” of the “Bible” he professes to believe in – WHAT would he say? He said: “All Bible Believers Admit the Bible Contains the Subject of Predestination/Election”. WHICH “BIBLE” is he referring to? Hmmm?

WHAT do I care about: “The Articles of Religion in 1571”; “The Formula of Concord in 1577”; “The Westminister Confession of Faith of 1643-1646”; or the “The Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689”? All of these “confessions” came during or after John Calvin, and so they are just “parroting” John Calvin’s PHILOSOPHY! My whole Post uses only the Holy Scriptures and I do NOT rely on any man to write what I believe – the entire study is entirely my own with the exception for the very last Post concerning John Calvin’s life.

The “esteemed” Dr. Keith Sherlin continually uses corrupt bibles as the following illustrates:

Under: “Election/Predestination is Related to the Omniscient Foreknowledge of God’

He quotes from:

The Bible teaches that "for by grace through faith we are saved; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Eph. 2:8-9 NASB).

He will often quote from “bibles” without referencing WHICH ONE HE IS QUOTING! For example:

Under: Election/Predestination is Conditioned Upon God's Determinate Foreknowledge, Not Man's Will and Obedience

Under: God Determines What He Eternally Knows

The good “doctor” quotes:

Psalm 139:4 "Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O Lord You know it all." (?)

Psalms 139:4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether. {KJB}

Psalm 139:16 "Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The Days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them."(?)

Psalms 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. {KJB}

Isaiah 46:9-10 "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure.'" (?)

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: {KJB}

Ephesians 1:11 "We have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."(?)

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: {KJB}

Under: God Eternally Knows Some, But Not All, As His Children


The “esteemed doctor” quotes:

Matthew 7:22-23 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; Depart from Me, You who practice lawlessness.'" (?)

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. {KJB}

Romans 9:21-23 "Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessles of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory" (NASB).

The New Living Translation captures this thought in a very vivid way: Romans 9:21-23 reads in the NLT: "When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn't he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into? God has every right to exercise his judgement and his power, but he also has the right to be very patient with those who are the objects of his judgement and are fit only for destruction. He also has the right to pour out the riches of his glory upon those he prepared to be the objects of his mercy."

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, {KJB}

And again Under: Fear Being a Vessel of Wrath and Flee to Jesus Christ for Salvation

2nd Peter said it this way, "be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall" (1:10 ESV)

And this time - the “esteemed doctor” comes up with his “OWN TRANSLATION”:

“The Bible tells us that "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son so that whoever is believing in him right now will not perish but will have everlasting life" (John 3:16 my translation of the Greek text).

Did you not notice that the “esteemed” doctor failed to quote from the Holy Bible? Doesn’t it bother you (at least a little) that the “esteemed” doctor fails to quote from God’s Holy word (the King James Bible) – NOT EVEN ONCE in his entire essay? Are you so desperate to “DISPROVE” what I have written that you will appeal to a man who REFUSES to quote from the Holy Bible – NOT EVEN ONCE?

IF after studying this issue for the past three months, this is ALL that you can up with, then I suggest that you go “back to the drawing board” and SKIP the “esteemed doctor” (and all of the rest of the commentators) and “search the Scriptures” yourself (instead) to see if what I presented was true or NOT.

As for the “esteemed doctor. Keith Sherli, If he were in our church, we wouldn’t let him teach Sunday School!

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.