[George]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth > Post #24
I think I need more clarification, especially if this will be a rule of the forum. and yes, the forum rules should be specific if you want to be able to suspend people for breaking the said rules.

First of all, I believe Brandon said this was not a Church and therefore Church order is not in place, such as do not rebuke an elder. and if this is one of the forum rules then we better put the age as well as gender on all of the user profiles. I agree that if we choose to walk in the spirit then we will want to respect those that are older than us, as well as everyone else.

I don't always know who is my elder and also who is male and female. At my home Church this is all well understood and the elders are above reproach.

I'm sorry again George, but this doesn't make sense to me. You need to decide what your mission is. Do you want to put many under Church discipline or do you want to help edify others. Even others that may not be where they need to be as far as their Christian walk? We turn the other cheek in hopes of winning the offender over. We balance truth and love.

If you want to be respected as an elder, you need to be above reproach. Meaning if someone does come to you with a rebuke, you should be able to defend yourself in aChristian way or apologize when you are in the flesh. and I understand personally, the Holy Spirit within us struggles against the flesh and the flesh against the Spirit.

I'm really trying not to be disrespectful, but we need to iron this out? It looks as though since you are older, we are not to question you.

"More ‘Clarification”:

Sorry Beth, but I know what my *"mission" is {see*} and it is not to turn my cheek every time a "stranger" insults me or another brother or sister in Christ. And if we "suspend" God's instructions to us as Christians just because this is not a "church", then I for one want no part of such an operation.

There is no reason why, when a person comes on to this Forum that they cannot be Polite, Considerate, Respectful, and Conduct themselves "Honorably". And if they don't have the Christian decency to act in such a manner, then we have no obligation to "turn the other cheek in hopes of winning the offender over." (Wrong scriptural application - wrong dispensation.).

You have said: “you should be able to defend yourself in a Christian way”. What “way” is that? Is it what you “think” I should do or say, or are you referring to my following the scriptures? The following examples demonstrate how the Apostle Paul dealt with the “brethren” in a scriptural manner, I’m afraid it doesn’t follow your “concept” of the “Christian way” – but it is according to the scriptures.

There are people out there who are: “unruly persons”; "heretics"; "reprobates'; "vain talkers"; “deceivers”; “false teachers”; “false brethren”; and “grievous wolves”. These are all “Scriptural” terms describing people who - we have no obligation to extend the hand of “friendship” to, or much less the hand of Christian “Fellowship”. There are those who "shipwreck" other people’s faith (Hymenaeus & Alexander - 1Timothy 1:19-20) of whom Paul did not try to “edify”:

[1 Timothy 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.]

Nor did Paul "turn the other cheek in hopes of winning the offender over." Instead he “delivered them over to Satan”. Pretty strong words! And the reason for this is we are in a “war” – and that “war” is to be conducted by men in an “army” (according to the Scriptures); not the Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Cub Scouts, or Camp Fire Girls.

And what of Hymenaeus & Philetus?

2 Timothy 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Not “everyone” who claims to be a brother is deserving of:
2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

The “unity” of the faith has to do with those with whom we can walk together with:
{Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?} Where can there be “unity” and/or “fellowship”; when a “Christian”, who is a perfect stranger, castigates and insults me after only being on this forum for 5 days? Can you not see that that kind of “conduct” is in total opposition to 90% of the Christians that have joined? When he “bragged” about: “being in rare form tonight”, could you not see him for what he is?

And what of Phygellus & Hermogenes?

2 Timothy 1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

Do you really think that Paul was concerned about “reaching out” to these “brethren”?

And what about Alexander the coppersmith?

2 Timothy 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward himaccording to his works:

Paul wasn’t much concerned with Christian “forgiveness” with Alexander – he asked that God would “reward him according to his works” and at some point before this Paul delivered him unto Satan also! [1 Timothy 1:20]

And now on to my being an elder: Common sense and decency, would dictate that all Christians who are new to this Forum would have some consideration and respect for all of us who are already here, regardless of who we are. Not hurl insults against them in less than a week.

I have never pushed what little authority I have (which is strictly confined to our local church – see *) in this Forum, because I do not have any authority over anyone here (except my wife), and I have never even “intimated” that I do. (If I did – why didn’t I go to Brandon and request {or “demand”} that he kick the offender off?). I am a firm believer in the maximum amount of Christian “Liberty” allowed by scripture. Anyone who knows me knows that what I have said is true. I do not seek “dominion” over the brethren – here on this Forum or anywhere else for that matter.

[2 Corinthians 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.]

On the other hand I do have the “right” and “duty” to defend myself and any other Christian brother who comes under attack, or who is unjustly charged or accused of wrong doing if we are innocent of the charges. Paul never “rolled over” and “turned the other cheek” when he was falsely charged.

I not only have the “right”, but I also have a duty and responsibility to criticize any one who falsely accuses me or another Christian of wrong doing, or insults us. After all, it would be a double standard if someone on this Forum would have the “right” to accuse me, or say, brother Ruckman, of wrong doing; but I would not have the “same right” to answer the charges and level criticisms’ of my own at the accuser. Or would it be fair, if I am required to answer someone’s criticisms “according” to how the accuser “thinks” I should, or in a “tone” that is acceptable to them?

Titus 2:15These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Galatians 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

You and others on this Forum may not like or agree with my “tone” or “directness”, but I do not “insult” people by calling them names (like stupid, knucklehead, jerk, etc.), if I call someone a name – it’s because I believe the person is guilty of being: a “Humanist”, a “Sophist” a “liar”, etc.; or if I believe they are proud, vain, arrogant, puffed up, etc. I call it the way I see it. Again, you may not like the way I express myself, but you have no right to “dictate” to me how I do – since I do not “dictate” to you how you respond.

"It looks as though since you are older, we are not to question you."

I really don't care how it "looks" to you - I have never ever taken that position here or anywhere else. You shouldn't be "reading" into my motives, unless I have made this "claim" you accuse me of. "Biblestudent and Brother Tim and I have had our differences - why don't you ask them if I left them with the "impression" that they were "not to question" me.

The Apostle Paul spent three years continually warning the Christians of his day of the “danger’ from within the churches of “grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.” From his day until ours there have always been “false brethren”; "grievous wolves"; “false teachers” and such destroying Christian’s faith in God’s word, and eventually destroying God’s churches. {2,000 years of church history demonstrates this over and over and over again – literally hundreds of times).

You will have to decide WHY I am here. Since: “I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.” I cannot be “guilty” of that charge. Of course it could be that I am one of those men who:“arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.” Or I could be a proud, vain, arrogant, “blow hard”, and know-it-all. Or I could be a Sophist and a “troublemaker”, who enjoys a good old debate once in a while. Or I just might be a Christian who has “been around the block” a few times, and is genuinely concerned for the welfare (spiritual & physical) of the saints.

This isn’t “My First Rodeo”, I have seen “Christians” (or people who call themselves “Christians”) commit practically every sin in the BOOK. I have no illusions about what “Christians” are capable of doing – and I will continue to “warn” the brethren “night and day” to beware – not everything and everyone is what and who they “appear to be.

The following verses are just a few that describe the days that we live in and why we should be both careful and prudent about who we trust, or admire, or respect, when it comes to God’s words and the “interpretation” of them.

Acts 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2 Timothy 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.
16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.


* My "Mission": (I “know what my “mission” is and my “orders” come from God – not from contemporary “mores” {socially acceptable behavior} designed to dictate my conduct according to Humanist Dogma).

SCRIPTURAL DUTIES & RESPONSIBILITIES OF: {an elder-pastor}

PERSONAL (Inward)

1. PRAYER [Addressed - to God]

2. STUDY [Scriptures – from God]

CONGREGATIONAL (Outward – “the ministry of the word of God”)

3. PREACHING [The Word of God] {PURPOSE: Feeding & Edification–Doctrine & Conduct}

4. TEACHING [Convincing, Exhorting - Sound Doctrine & the Whole Council of God] {PURPOSE: Feeding & Edification – Doctrine & Conduct}

5. WARNING [Against: Leaven (False Doctrine), Philosophy, Vain Deceit, the Traditions of Men, Science-Falsely-so-called, and the Rudiments of the World, etc.] {PURPOSE: Edification– Doctrine & Conduct}

CORRECTION– SCRIPTURAL AUTHORITY & LIMITS OF: {an elder-pastor}

6. ADMONISHING [Advise, Caution, or Notify of a Fault] {PURPOSE - Correction}

7. REPROVING [To Refute, Disprove, or Convince of a Fault or to Make It Manifest] {PURPOSE - Correction}

8. REBUKING [To reprehend for faults; to chide, chasten, check, restrain or silence] {PURPOSE - Correction}

Headings 6-8 above describe the absolute LIMITS OF PASTORAL AUTHORITY (“Correction”). All matters of Discipline within a church are to be administered by the whole body (the congregation) – NOT an individual elder-pastor, or a board of deacons, or any other extra-scriptural council or committee.
NOTE: All matters of Punishment are to be administered by Almighty God!

In the early church there was no clergy–laity set up as in almost all modern day churches. There was no one individual “pastor” over the church, or in the larger churches – a “senior pastor”; “assistant pastors”; “youth pastor”; “Choir Director”; or so-called “Christian Counsellors” - dispensing pagan philosophy within the church, or today’s’ modern equivalent - Humanism, Psychiatry, & Psychology.

The leaders in the early church were called elders and were always plural in number and they shared whatever power and authority they had – equally. No division existed between the congregation and elders-pastors. [They (elders-pastors and the congregation) all were brethren – with no distinctions!]

An elder’s (pastor’s) authority over the brethren (in a local church) was, and still is, very limited – spiritual only!

An elder (pastor) is not to exercise dominion over the brethren or over their faith!

2 Corinthians 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

Just to be clear: The purpose of my being here on this Forum is mainly to edify and be edified; and to warn the saints of leaven in the form of doctrine or people.

If someone comes on this Forum and hurls insults at me or at the brethren; or if they make false claims and charges against me or my friends; you may be rest assured that I will respond in a manner that I believe is scripturally appropriate according to the circumstances and who is doing the insulting, etc.