I would like to see a discussion of the claims of Pentecostalism and the Charismatic movement since it has come up here and there but never been fully pursued.

I answered a post by Bibleprotector in which he made the claim that the gifts of the Spirit are an advanced form of Christianity, but I answered him on the wrong thread so I would like to start a thread now for that purpose only.

The relevant parts of Bibleprotector's post are:

Gifts of the Spirit differently understood

I haven't heard before the distinction you make between the Holy Spirit's baptizing us into Christ and Christ's baptizing us with the Holy Spirit, which is something to think about, but I have heard of a difference being made between being baptized in the Spirit, as a one-time event, and being filled with the Holy Spirit, which can be shown from Scripture to be something that may occur many times in a person's life. I wonder if you are aware of this way of looking at it and what you think of it.

I personally believe that we do need a distinction, because clearly there have been individuals and whole revivals in which God came in more than usual power, and this way of looking at it explains it for me. I believe there is a filling that can or does occur in some Christian's lives above and beyond the Holy Spirit baptism at salvation,

Luke :41
And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Luke 1:67
And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 4:8
Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
Acts 4:31
And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
Acts 9:17
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 13:9
Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,
Acts 13:52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.

and I yearn for God to bring this to us again in revival.

At the same time I've also come to believe that the most conspicuous of the supernatural "gifts of the Spirit" embraced by the Pentecostals and Charismatics are not part of this filling since the early church. It's simply a matter of historical fact that they stopped, and unfortunately what has "resumed" is not a resumption but in most cases demonstrably a fake. David Cloud has done probably the most thorough and convincing study of the history of Pentecostalism, and I wonder if you are familiar with his work and what you think of it.

When even Charles Parham, who started the tongues movement in America, denounces the majority of tongues -- "three-fourths" I believe he said, at Azusa Street and subsequently -- as demonic manifestations, I think it's a fair conclusion that they ALL are demonic, since Parham himself was clearly deceived. And I say this as one who presumably had, or even still has, this "gift," which I've been uneasy about for a long time now, in fact even from the moment I received it. Besides obviously fake tongues, I heard countless obviously fake "prophetic words" when I was still part of the movement. Also, David Cloud has shown that the supposed "gift of healing" (such as practiced by Aimee McPherson, Kathryn Kuhlman, William Branham, Oral Roberts and now Benny Hinn), has racked up an impressive record of total failure.

I believe the burden of proof of the legitimacy of any of these supernatural gifts of the Spirit is with the believers in it, in the face of so much evidence to the contrary, and I haven't seen anything that adds up to legitimacy yet, plenty of declared healings or tongues or prophecies, no actual evidence of legitimacy. (I'm certainly not arguing that God may not heal miraculously today, in answer to prayer, I'm merely saying that the GIFT of healing has stopped. I'm also not saying that God does not communicate with His people in private ways, but they ARE private ways, they are not prophecy given to the church at large. And I see no reason whatever for the gift of tongues any more).

The hard thing for those of us who ever accepted the charismatic gifts as for today, and especially if we've experienced what we think are those gifts, is how to explain their cessation and the lack of clarity in the scripture one way or the other. Many have no problem simply claiming that the church after the days of the apostles was somehow at fault for losing the gifts, while others point to the historical fact of their dying out as evidence that they are not meant for today, or they claim that I Corinthians 13:8 means that the gifts of prophecy and tongues would cease with the establishment of the canon. None of these answers is very convincing, or never was to me.

It is only recently I finally found a satisfactory answer to this for myself, and unfortunately I'm not remembering where I first ran across it as I'd like to refer to it. First there is that the supernatural gifts were signs of an apostle,

2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds

indicating that if the church at large went on possessing these gifts they would no longer be the special signs of the apostles,

and Second, since the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was announced by Peter as the fulfillment of the prophecy by the prophet Joel, yet clearly all the conditions of that prophecy were not met at that time, the best understanding of why the gifts of the Spirit did not continue past the apostolic generation was that the prophecy predominantly refers to the period of the Second Coming, in fact the period of the Great Tribulation, which is described in Joel:

Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

That didn't happen in the first century or any time since, so it must still be future. The gifts at Pentecost were given as signs that the true Messiah had come, and they had a clear purpose during the period when the church was just born and beginning to spread into the world, but once the church was established they were no longer needed. Their purpose at that time was fulfilled. But Joel's prophecy as a whole remains unfulfilled, so that the reasonable expectation is that its complete fulfillment is yet future.

The gifts had a purpose in the early church-- they were given to establish the supernatural foundation of the church in God, through the apostles -- and they will have a further purpose just before Jesus returns.

The purpose specifically of the gift of tongues, however, was as a sign to the Jews:

1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not . . .

Perhaps at the very end, which is no doubt very close, when Jews are expected to come to Christ in great numbers, the gift of tongues will again have a purpose, but tongues is not part of the prophecy of Joel, it refers back to Isaiah instead, so its purpose may already have been fufilled in the early church which went first to the synagogues.

I doubt the Lord would bring true revival wherever the gifts are believed to be for today because they are not from Him, certainly not without convicting such churches of that very error first.