[Brother Tim]

Great to hear from you again, PeopleoftheWay! Great verse!

Forrest, dear Brother! I wish that the distance was not so great between our homes, for I would enjoy sitting and enjoying fellowship face-to-face with you. It is rare even here among brethren (and sistren) who agree on many things to have someone openly confess to a change in understanding of a spiritual concept, and this could have been a divisive topic. I pray that I can be as open to the prompting of the Spirit of God, and, yes, He uses my wife often!

[peopleoftheway]

Great to hear from you again, PeopleoftheWay! Great verse!

Thanks Brother, I havent felt moved to post lately and a lack of internet at my home has limited that option further. I am still lurking and reading making sure you are all behaving, especially that rascal Brother George

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

Great to hear from you again, PeopleoftheWay! Great verse!

Forrest, dear Brother! I wish that the distance was not so great between our homes, for I would enjoy sitting and enjoying fellowship face-to-face with you. It is rare even here among brethren (and sistren) who agree on many things to have someone openly confess to a change in understanding of a spiritual concept, and this could have been a divisive topic. I pray that I can be as open to the prompting of the Spirit of God, and, yes, He uses my wife often!

I would enjoy that too. Thanks for your encouragement, brother.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Biblestudent]

Thanks for the link, Bro. Luke!

[Biblestudent]

Based on Genesis 2:7, Ruckman says a baby does not have a soul until it breathes (at birth). That's why he believes abortion is not murder, but that doesn't mean that abortion is okay. He further says that truth is truth, whether men take advantage of it or not.

However, as shown in the discussions above, Scripture passages show that a baby is considered a person ("child", "infant") before birth.

I believe that a person has a body, soul, and spirit at conception. If breath is life, and life begins at conception, could it be that the baby starts to breathe (dependently to the mother) when conceived in the womb? (I'm not good in Biology, sorry for my ignorance!)

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by Biblestudent

Based on Genesis 2:7, Ruckman says a baby does not have a soul until it breathes (at birth).

I know this interpretation has been thoroughly disproved already in this thread, but there is one more aspect to that which simply makes no sense and is totally inconsistent.

The first breath a baby takes is not "God's breath," like Adam's was. The first breath a baby takes is the polluted sin-infested air in which we know evil powers reside (Eph 2:2, etc). It is absurd to compare this breath with God's breathing into Adam. And for Dr. Ruckman to hold to that position makes little sense, since I know he also teaches that the creation of the atmosphere was not called "good" as the other steps in the creation week were. While I appreciate Dr. Ruckman's teaching on many subjects, I think it's a good idea to ignore his speculation on this one.

[atlas]

Diligent,

The first breath a baby takes is not "God's breath," like Adam's was. The first breath a baby takes is the polluted sin-infested air in which we know evil powers reside (Eph 2:2, etc). It is absurd to compare this breath with God's breathing into Adam. And for Dr. Ruckman to hold to that position makes little sense, since I know he also teaches that the creation of the atmosphere was not called "good" as the other steps in the creation week were. While I appreciate Dr. Ruckman's teaching on many subjects, I think it's a good idea to ignore his speculation on this one.

AMEN, AMEN and AMEN.

Dr. Ruckman is good 99% of the time, but he missed the boat big time on this issue.

There is no way we can use the creation of Adam to say anything about other folks born in a sinful world with a sinful nature.


Atlas

[chette777]

dil,

what I am saying is that a person in gestation and prebirth state has no conscienceness of his sin nature. I am not saying they don't have sin nature Birth defects prove that the nature is there.

no person knows there own sinful state prior to birth. It is only at birth the person becomes conscience or aware. that is what I have been trying to say

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by chette777

dil,

what I am saying is that a person in gestation and prebirth state has no conscienceness of his sin nature. I am not saying they don't have sin nature Birth defects prove that the nature is there.

no person knows there own sinful state prior to birth. It is only at birth the person becomes conscience or aware. that is what I have been trying to say

Okay, I think I understand your point. After more consideration I think we just can't make any assumptions either way (as to when a person is aware of themselves). Luke chapter 1 has John, pre-birth, leaping for joy -- not just some random kick. Maybe John was unique in that way, but some studies do show that unborn children do have some awareness of what is going on around them sometimes...

But as for sin, we both agree that unborn children are certainly not held accountable for their sin nature.

[George]

Originally Posted by atlas

Diligent,

AMEN, AMEN and AMEN.

Dr. Ruckman is good 99% of the time, but he missed the boat big time on this issue.

There is no way we can use the creation of Adam to say anything about other folks born in a sinful world with a sinful nature.

Atlas

Aloha Atlas,

Please see my Post #47 > "Peter Ruckman Stance On Abortion" > Page 5.