[Forrest]

"Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea" (Revelation 1:11).

The Interpretation of this Passage

1. Since they are identified as "churches", are the members of these churches "called out believers"?
   
2. Are these "seven literal historical churches" with unique messages that are relevant and applicable to individual churches today?
   
3. Or, is this a prophecy which specifically addresses and applies exclusively to the thousand year Millennium?
   
4. Or, all three?

(There seems to be so many relevant and needful applications for us, today.)

[George]

Originally Posted by Forrest

"Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea" (Revelation 1:11).

The Interpretation of this Passage

1. Since they are identified as "churches", are the members of these churches "called out believers"?
2. Are these "seven literal historical churches" with unique messages that are relevant and applicable to individual churches today?
3. Or, is this a prophecy which specifically addresses and applies exclusively to the thousand year Millennium?
4. Or, all three?

(There seems to be so many relevant and needful applications for us, today.)

Aloha brother Forrest,

Please read (or re-read) my comments on the word "church" in my Thread - "Rightly Dividing God's Words". The word "church" in the Bible doesn't always mean a "New Testament church" (as we know it).

The questions that you ask are some of the same questions that I have "grappled" with for years (and still haven't got a "complete handle on".)

I will give you some "food for thought" - Please consider the following verses:

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

{The Apostle John was "physically" on the Isle of Patmos - That is: his body was physically located at Patmos, and at a specific time in past history} BUT, He was some where's else "spiritually":

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

The standard "interpretation" is that John was in the Spirit on SUNDAY. But the Scriptures don't say that! The Bible states that John was in the Spirit on THE LORD'S DAY! Look up "The Lord's Day"; or "The Day of The Lord"; or "That Great Day"; or any other reference that you can think of and see if "The Lord's Day" = SUNDAY. {I don't "think" so! }

In order to "rightly divide" the Book of Revelation, we must first determine WHAT is "The Lord's Day", because all of the following verses hinge on WHEN and WHERE John was when he saw what he saw and wrote what he wrote. {Context! Verses without a "context" more likely than not = a "pretext"}

For instance: If John was in the "Future" {"The Day of the Lord"}, then ALL of the things that he saw and heard were in the "Future"; which would mean that he was writing to "churches" that were not necessarily in existence in his day (historically) but are going to be in existence in the Tribulation}.

The Book of Revelation is about the Future, and as such it has been "interpreted" in literally hundreds of ways. I don't profess to understand it all (Understanding is dependent upon God showing us), but I will say this - I believe that Revelation 1:10 is the "KEY" to understanding and "rightly dividing" the Book, and if "The Lord's Day" is NOT SUNDAY, then most of what is taught as "Doctrine" for the Book may not be doctrine at all, but possibly "Spiritual" instead. Remember the: Historical; Doctrinal; and Spiritual "application" of all Scripture.

Your questions in regards to this subject are some of the most difficult questions I have encountered on this Forum, and truthfully I don't have all of the answers for them {I wish I did!}

I hope that the discussion that follows doesn't turn into "a can of worms", for I would genuinely like to see what the brethren have for my edification on this matter.

[Biblestudent]

Originally Posted by George

The Book of Revelation is about the Future, and as such it has been "interpreted" in literally hundreds of ways. I don't profess to understand it all (Understanding is dependent upon God showing us), but I will say this - I believe that Revelation 1:10 is the "KEY" to understanding and "rightly dividing" the Book, and if "The Lord's Day" is NOT SUNDAY, then most of what is taught as "Doctrine" for the Book may not be doctrine at all, but possibly "Spiritual" instead. Remember the: Historical; Doctrinal; and Spiritual "application" of all Scripture.

Bro. George, I'm in complete agreement with you on this.

The phrase "in the Spirit" further strengthens this view. While it is used in various ways in the Bible, John being "in the Spirit" is clearly defined in the same book (Book of Revelation):

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Revelation 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

John being "in the Spirit" means being ""carried away" to another place or time.

Ezekiel has a similar "in-the-Spirit" experience:

Ezekiel 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,

Ezekiel 8:3 And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy.

There are many other examples of people being carried "in the Spirit" to another place.

1 Kings 18:12 And it shall come to pass, as soon as I am gone from thee, that the Spirit of the LORD shall carry thee whither I know not; and so when I come and tell Ahab, and he cannot find thee, he shall slay me: but I thy servant fear the LORD from my youth.

2 Kings 2:16 And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the LORD hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send.

Luke 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

[Biblestudent]

Furthermore, the book of Revelation is "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" (Rev. 1:1), and we know that that refers to His Second Coming.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

1 Peter 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; (cf. 2 Pet. 1:16)

In other words, the Book of Revelation deals mainly with the Second Coming and the events prior to it.

Originally Posted by Forrest

"Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea" (Revelation 1:11).

The Interpretation of this Passage

1. Since they are identified as "churches", are the members of these churches "called out believers"?
   
2. Are these "seven literal historical churches" with unique messages that are relevant and applicable to individual churches today?
   
3. Or, is this a prophecy which specifically addresses and applies exclusively to the thousand year Millennium?
   
4. Or, all three?

(There seems to be so many relevant and needful applications for us, today.)

I didn't read all the other posts, I am merely responding to the original question.

Historical application - these are 7 literal local churches in Asia.
Spiritual/Devotional application - relevant and applicable to individual churches today.
I would also add that these could be laid out as 7 periods of the church age, starting with Ephesus, ending with Laodicea.

Doctrinal - I don't believe this fits the millenium as well as the Tribulation. I believe the doctrinal content of the passage points to tribulation setting. So these could be 7 literal local churches in asia during the tribulation, and/or 7 different types of churches during the tribulation.

In Christ,

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by George

Aloha brother Forrest,

Remember the: Historical; Doctrinal; and Spiritual "application" of all Scripture.

I do not want to take this thread off subject--so to speak. But I do want to make sure I have a proper understanding regarding the historical, doctrinal, and spiritual view. Several have referred to the issue of historical, doctrinal, and spiritual application on various threads. I have read the comments of other well learned brethren, and I'm not sure I really have a grip on some of their teaching. So, once again, I'll ask for your "elderly" counsel.

To me, the historical and spiritual application is self-explanatory. It's the teaching on the doctrinal aspect that I may not have a thorough understand of. So I'll ask for some clarification.

Is all doctrine in the Holy Scriptures, although it is not specifically "aimed" at us, profitable for us?

When we read that "all scripture is profitable for doctrine" is that limited to only those doctrines in scripture that are aimed at us?

Personally, Brother George, it would be very difficult for me to say, "Since a particular doctrine is not aimed at me, it is not profitable to me for doctrine."

It's probably a lot simpler than I'm making it, but it seems important to me. In your understanding, what does the historical, doctrinal, and spiritual view mean? But not altogether.

[George]

Originally Posted by Forrest

I do not want to take this thread off subject--so to speak. But I do want to make sure I have a proper understanding regarding the historical, doctrinal, and spiritual view. Several have referred to the issue of historical, doctrinal, and spiritual application on various threads. I have read the comments of other well learned brethren, and I'm not sure I really have a grip on some of their teaching. So, once again, I'll ask for your "elderly" counsel.

To me, the historical and spiritual application is self-explanatory. It's the teaching on the doctrinal aspect that I may not have a thorough understand of. So I'll ask for some clarification.

Is all doctrine in the Holy Scriptures, although it is not specifically "aimed" at us, profitable for us?

When we read that "all scripture is profitable for doctrine" is that limited to only those doctrines in scripture that are aimed at us?

Personally, Brother George, it would be very difficult for me to say, "Since a particular doctrine is not aimed at me, it is not profitable to me for doctrine."

It's probably a lot simpler than I'm making it, but it seems important to me. In your understanding, what does the historical, doctrinal, and spiritual view mean? But not altogether.

Aloha brother Forrest,

Since:
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Then it follows that the premise:

"Since a particular doctrine is not aimed at me, it is not profitable to me for doctrine."

would be a "false premise".

I do not adhere to such a "premise", although some Hyper (Ultra) Dispensationalists do. I try to abide by what is written, i.e. "All Scripture" is not only "given by inspiration" but that - ALL SCRIPTURE IS PROFITABLE for ALL of those things listed, including DOCTRINE.

My "job" (as a student of Scripture) is to "rightly divide" the word of God, and determine what part of the Scriptures apply to me (doctrinally). But All of the Scripture is there for my "learning".
[Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.]

I do not "pick apart" the Scriptures, I endeavor to "rightly divide" them.

[Gord]

Originally Posted by Biblestudent

Furthermore, the book of Revelation is "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" (Rev. 1:1), and we know that that refers to His Second Coming.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

1 Peter 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; (cf. 2 Pet. 1:16)

In other words, the Book of Revelation deals mainly with the Second Coming and the events prior to it.

Actually, no book in Scripture reveals the glory of God and Christ in any more splendor than does this book. IMHO.

[chette777]

Actually no book reveals God's glory and splender in all it's grandure. for that is left to God alone to do.

When we are gathered to Christ we will not just see the fulness of his glory as no book even in our KJV Bibles can depict. But we shall be his glory and we shall be glorified in the fulness of our Lord Jesus Christ. Now that will be a revealing of a glory unpresidented. RIA