[Here Am I]

Originally Posted by Vendetta Ride

I believe it refers to the Old Testament prophets, up to and including John the Baptist, who was the last.

When I was at PBI, this question came up, and Ruckman challenged the class: "Go home and find a place in any of the prophets where it says, explicitly, that one must be saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ." I'm paraphrasing, of course; it's been twenty years.

But none of us could find such a verse.

Originally Posted by Born Crucified

Mr Ruckman was using a technique similar to a magicians' sleight of hand or mental suggestion.

Sure, the name Jesus Christ is not found in the Old Testament. But Messiah is mentioned twice; salvation is mentioned 115 times; deliverer is mentioned 8 times; Saviour is mentioned 13 times... many other attributes of the Lord are mentioned throughout the Old Testament.

It was not just the prophets who looked for the Messiah, but patriarch's throughout the Old Testament revealed their faith that one day a Saviour would come.

Jesus said in John 5:39 Search the Scripture's for in them ye think ye have eternal life; but they are they that testify of me.

The prophets gave witness of Jesus Christ. Why question the Word of God?

Ruckman is nothing but a mental magician turning man's eyes from reality to what he wants them to see.

BC, that's not what I was referring to.

I was asking:

How would someone get saved by looking forward to Jesus Christ, before there were any Scriptures prophesying His coming?

How would they have known to 'look forward to the cross'?

Because, BEFORE there were Scriptures written, how did people get saved, how were they redeemed?

Did Adam go to Hell? He did not have Scripture to read, prophets to tell him about the upcoming Messiah. How would he have gotten forgiveness of his sins?

How would he, and others, have known of a Messiah, of the cross, of the saving grace of God, without the Scriptures?

If people didn't have access to either a prophet, or the writings of the prophets, how would he know to look forward to 'the cross' or 'the Messiah'?

Now, Vendetta Ride (VR) is a grown man, and can answer your post by himself, I'm sure, but I wanted to point out something to you: VR said that Dr. Ruckman said to look for Scripture that said that you had to be saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ. He did not say there were no references to the Messiah in the OT.

It is not necessary, btw, to make commentary about a brother in Christ, such as you did about Dr. Ruckman. You might not realize this, but it makes you look petty, and immature.

Originally Posted by Forrest

I'm still learning.

So am I, brother, so are all of us!

Originally Posted by Born Crucified

Mr Ruckman was using a technique similar to a magicians' sleight of hand or mental suggestion.

Nonsense.

Sure, the name Jesus Christ is not found in the Old Testament. But Messiah is mentioned twice; salvation is mentioned 115 times; deliverer is mentioned 8 times; Saviour is mentioned 13 times... many other attributes of the Lord are mentioned throughout the Old Testament.

Thank you; I've been aware of that since the first week I became a Christian (I was blessed with good teachers). And nobody's disputing it. Dr. Ruckman asked for a verse, in the Old Testament prophets, that said, specifically, that one is saved purely by faith in the Messiah. No such verse exists. Isaiah 53:10, 11 comes close, but not quite; and, anyway, Isaiah is not "all the prophets," as Peter says in Acts 10:43.

Do all of the Old Testament prophets bear witness of Jesus Christ? In one way or another, yes. But they simply do not say that anyone will be saved by faith in Christ alone. They had not been given that revelation. (Peter's words in Acts 10:43 are similar to Jesus's words in John 9:58.) There is no contradiction or problem here at all.

The real point of Acts 10:43 is found in the word "whosoever." He is telling the people that salvation will not be limited to the Jews. This is the context of the verse; the entire chapter concerns God granting salvation to the Gentiles. Acts 10 is where Peter has the vision of the sheet, and where the first Gentile convert to Christ (Cornelius) is recorded. Acts 10:43 is part of Peter's first sermon to Gentiles, immediately after receiving the vision. There's no need to complicate it.

The prophets gave witness of Jesus Christ. Why question the Word of God?

Nobody's questioning the word of God, thank you; we are attempting to understand it.

Ruckman is nothing but a mental magician turning man's eyes from reality to what he wants them to see.

Unless you've known him longer than I have (25 years), and unless you've read his works, you simply don't know what you're talking about.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by chette777

Forrest, The Writer is not telling us that Moses was suffering for telling the people about the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. rather he is saying that the same kind of reproaches had fell on Christ fell on Moses for doing right. Dr Peter Ruckman.

Not always are the rewards of doing right felt at the time we do them. sometime we suffer reproach for it. Moses just felt that reporaches was a good reward for doing right.

Hebrews 11.

24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

Moses endured seeing who? I thought since the writer of Hebrews under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit specifically chose the name Christ in verse 26, that the words "him who is invisible" must refer to Christ. If not, who did Moses suffer and endure for?

The Writer is not telling us that Moses was suffering for telling the people about the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

I certainly agree with your statement above. I'm just pointing out that by "divine revelation" Moses must have known Christ. Like King David in Psalm 110:1. And like all of the prophets of God.

[George]

Aloha brother Forrest,

You keep asking excellent questions and making some very good points.

Please consider these verses in regards to your Post #49.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

I couldn't post the following verses without including the prior verses - I'm trying to keep the issue in "context".

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently , who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that NOT unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are NOW reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

These verses are simply saying that although "the sufferings of Christ" and "the glory that should follow" were "prophesied" by the prophets - they (the prophets) did NOT "understand" what in the world "the Spirit of Christ" ("which was in them" when they did prophesy) was saying! They "prophesied", but they didn't understand their own prophesies! {And although they "searched diligently" - they could not figure it out!

The prophets surely prophesied about "salvation"; God's "grace"; and "what manner of time" these things would happen, but it wasn't until AFTER the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ did He reveal the true application and import of these prophesies to His disciples and then, even more fully, to the Apostle Paul.

The verses are clear. The prophets prophesied the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. The "problem" they had was they couldn't understand or distinguish the "difference" between his "First" Coming {the suffering & death}; and the Second Coming {The Glory}. and the reason for that was the "MYSTERY" {the church of God} that no one in the Old Testament (All of the Jewish Prophets, Kings, etc.) knew anything about: [Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:]

I still have to answer the rest of your original questions, but I thought I would give you a little bit more "to chew on".

[chette777]

yeah 1Peter 1:12 was the verse that makes sense of it. As when Jesus said that Abraham saw Christ's day and rejoiced. they all had prophecies they may not have known Jesus By Name but they all knew the prophecies concerning him. handed down since adam of the son whose heel would be struck when he crushed the serpents head. they longed to look into those things and did though not understanding them all.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by George

Aloha brother Forrest,

These verses are simply saying that although "the sufferings of Christ" and "the glory that should follow" were "prophesied" by the prophets - they (the prophets) did NOT "understand" what in the world "the Spirit of Christ" ("which was in them" when they did prophesy) was saying! They "prophesied", but they didn't understand their own prophesies! {And although they "searched diligently" - they could not figure it out!

The prophets surely prophesied about "salvation"; God's "grace"; and "what manner of time" these things would happen, but it wasn't until AFTER the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ did He reveal the true application and import of these prophesies to His disciples and then, even more fully, to the Apostle Paul.

The verses are clear. The prophets prophesied the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. The "problem" they had was they couldn't understand or distinguish the "difference" between his "First" Coming {the suffering & death}; and the Second Coming {The Glory}. and the reason for that was the "MYSTERY" {the church of God} that no one in the Old Testament (All of the Jewish Prophets, Kings, etc.) knew anything about: Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:]

I still have to answer the rest of your original questions, but I thought I would give you a little bit more "to chew on".

That makes sense. Were people "saved" by believing the message of the Prophets?

You wrote:

The prophets surely prophesied about "salvation"; God's "grace"; and "what manner of time" these things would happen....

I realize that they did not know the full message of the Christ as we know it today. But did they know the Christ which God revealed through the Prophets? Did they believe? And was this their salvation?

Originally Posted by Vendetta Ride

Nonsense.


Thank you; I've been aware of that since the first week I became a Christian (I was blessed with good teachers). And nobody's disputing it. Dr. Ruckman asked for a verse, in the Old Testament prophets, that said, specifically, that one is saved purely by faith in the Messiah. No such verse exists. Isaiah 53:10, 11 comes close, but not quite; and, anyway, Isaiah is not "all the prophets," as Peter says in Acts 10:43.

Do all of the Old Testament prophets bear witness of Jesus Christ? In one way or another, yes. But they simply do not say that anyone will be saved by faith in Christ alone. They had not been given that revelation. (Peter's words in Acts 10:43 are similar to Jesus's words in John 9:58.) There is no contradiction or problem here at all.

The real point of Acts 10:43 is found in the word "whosoever." He is telling the people that salvation will not be limited to the Jews. This is the context of the verse; the entire chapter concerns God granting salvation to the Gentiles. Acts 10 is where Peter has the vision of the sheet, and where the first Gentile convert to Christ (Cornelius) is recorded. Acts 10:43 is part of Peter's first sermon to Gentiles, immediately after receiving the vision. There's no need to complicate it.


Nobody's questioning the word of God, thank you; we are attempting to understand it.


Unless you've known him longer than I have (25 years), and unless you've read his works, you simply don't know what you're talking about.

Tell you what, you can go ahead and defend the false prophet Ruckman. (he did falsely predict the rapture in 1989; of course you would know this if you have known him that long.) Ruckman, Peter. The Bible Believer's Bulletin, January 1989, p. 5

You can defend this man who thinks people who study the Greek and Hebrew are infidel's. (wasn't the original Bible written in those languages?). Ruckman’s Bible References: Personal Notes on Salient Verses in the Bible, 1997, p. 85

You can defend this man who claims women will be changed into males at the rapture. (where is that in the Word of God?) Ruckman, Peter. 22 Years of the Bible Believer’s Bulletin Vol. 1 “The AV Holy Bible” p. 110

You can defend this man who claims that Adam did not have blood in his veins but water (again, where is this in the Bible?) Ruckman, Peter. Ruckman’s Bible References: Personal Notes on Salient Verses in the Bible, p. 25

Ruckman is deceiving many and being deceived by the devil himself.

I will believe the Word of God. It alone is the way to life everlasting, not the junk that Ruckman teaches his idolizing idiots.

Ruckman repeatedly changed the date of the rapture. 1993, 2002, ...

Wow. The tribulation ends in 2000! So that means that Christ has been here all along and not one of us knew it! Amazing.

Ruckman is a false prophet and many are deceived by his teachings

[chette777]

We all know and so does Ruckman where he is stretching his Bible. but you will never see him correcting it. As you have done on these forums BC.

Originally Posted by Born Crucified

Tell you what, you can go ahead and defend the false prophet Ruckman. (he did falsely predict the rapture in 1989; of course you would know this if you have known him that long.) Ruckman, Peter. The Bible Believer's Bulletin, January 1989, p. 5

You can defend this man who thinks people who study the Greek and Hebrew are infidel's. (wasn't the original Bible written in those languages?). Ruckman’s Bible References: Personal Notes on Salient Verses in the Bible, 1997, p. 85

You can defend this man who claims women will be changed into males at the rapture. (where is that in the Word of God?) Ruckman, Peter. 22 Years of the Bible Believer’s Bulletin Vol. 1 “The AV Holy Bible” p. 110

You can defend this man who claims that Adam did not have blood in his veins but water (again, where is this in the Bible?) Ruckman, Peter. Ruckman’s Bible References: Personal Notes on Salient Verses in the Bible, p. 25

Ruckman is deceiving many and being deceived by the devil himself.

I will believe the Word of God. It alone is the way to life everlasting, not the junk that Ruckman teaches his idolizing idiots.

Thank you for your gracious comments, and God bless you.