Originally Posted by chette777

I think your asking th wrong question?

if they died before Jesus Christs first adavent, never given a chance to believe on or even hearing or knowing about Jesus Shed blood are they dammed to hell?

Nice dodge.

[Here Am I]

Originally Posted by George

Aloha sister Here Am I,

A word of warning sister: - the comments of BC and LindaR are not to be relied on. However, brother Forrest is asking a legitimate question. And I think your statement covers the issue.

This "problem" stems from the teaching that "Salvation has always been the SAME" from the creation of Adam up until the Great White Throne Judgment (in every Dispensation and under every Covenant of God.).

If BC's and LindaR's supposition ("that Salvation has always been the same") is right then their judgment on this issue is correct. HOWEVER, if "Salvation" in the Millennial reign of Christ is dependent on "works", then you are correct!

Thank you, brother. I was trying to explain my position, what I understand about the GWTJ, but I'm not terribly eloquent, er, rather, literate?

There are several passages in Revelation, alone, that refers to needing works for salvation, as in Matthew 25. We are in a period of grace, but those in the Tribulation and Millenium will not be.

I had a pretty good Sunday School teacher at my old church. However, he also got stuck on that 'OT salvation by looking forward to the cross' stuff, which does not make sense when you study Scripture. It's easy to just accept what some teacher tells you...it's a lot more work to search the Scriptures yourself...and often open yourself up to ridicule and scorn by those around you that prefer to believe what they are told, without checking it out for themselves.

{What are the "books" for - if everyone is going to the Lake of Fire? What is "the book of life" doing there -

Good point.

In the Millennium, where does FAITH come into play when the Lord of Glory is ruling and reigning on the throne of David, and you have millions of glorified saints all over the world, ruling and reigning with Him? [Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.] Where is the "Faith", when millions of carbon copies of Jesus Christ are going to be present on this world, ruling and reigning with the Lord of Glory, who will rule and reign from His Throne in Jerusalem?
If the people in the Millennium can SEE the Lord Jesus Christ (and millions of glorified saints) Just exactly where is FAITH if: Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Also a point I have made in the past, it might have been here or it might have been elsewhere...if you see the Lord Jesus, then you don't have faith, you KNOW He is, just like Adam and Eve didn't need faith, they walked with the Lord daily!

So, they were saved by .....works.... by not eating the fruit...

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Why is the Lord looking in the "book of life" - looking for someone, if they ALL are already condemned? "Whosoever was not found" - can we except the concept that the Lord is looking in the "book of life", and all that He is going to find is DEATH? I trow not.

That's a point I was trying to make, earlier, but I wasn't able to get it across as well as you have here. Thanks.

I do not believe that this issue is a "Fellowship" BREAKER - unless someone becomes belligerent and obnoxious over it.

Not for me, either. If someone insists that there are only damned people at the GWTJ, it doesn't affect my salvation, nor theirs.

Originally Posted by Forrest

Okay, brother. I'm open to learning. First, I've heard of this.

I love it when someone gives me a tidbit, and I chew on it a bit, and realize that the Lord has used them to give me something good, and important, and profitable!

But I don't mind people disagreeing with me, if they show me with Scripture, why they think they are right and I am wrong. I'm no scholar, just a very inadequate student, wanting to cram as much as I can into this inadequate brain in as little time as possible...I want to understand it all, now! LOL!

Originally Posted by chette777

forrest, works are always done in faith or not in faith. when works done by faith prior to the cross or during the Tribulation it would get them written in the Lambs book.

works during the Millennial Kingdom wil be by works alone because they cant have faith in that which they can see, Jesus sitting on His throne. remember Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. you cant have faith in Christ int eh Millennial Kingdom only works. if the works are done with pure motive they will be written in the lambs book of life. if not they will face judgement right on teh spot for He is a righteous judge. you don't dare come to Jerusalem in the millennial Kingdom with your oblation with a wrong motive or inpure heart in the work. it will get you judged and executed.

Amen, brother.

And also, thank you VR, for explaining what I was thinking a lot better than I could, making clear what I was trying to convey.

[Here Am I]

Originally Posted by Born Crucified

Even those before Christ came to earth had to witness Him. Scripture declares when He died on the cross He went and ministered to souls in prison and that He set the captive free. Even the Old Testament patriarchs had to witness the Son.

Do you have BCV (book, chapter, verse) to prove that?

I've heard similar assertations, but have never gotten Scriptural backing from anyone on it.

[Here Am I]

Originally Posted by chette777

I think your asking th wrong question?

if they died before Jesus Christs first adavent, never given a chance to believe on or even hearing or knowing about Jesus Shed blood are they dammed to hell?

Hmm, got a thought here...let me see if I can voice it:

How would someone get saved by looking forward to Jesus Christ, before there were any Scriptures prophesying His coming?

How would they have known to 'look forward to the cross'?

[George]

Aloha brother Forrest,

Good questions.

"Howdy" Brother George (as they say in Texas)."
"Works did not have anything to do with whether they were cast into the lake of fire, did it? I thought they were specifically cast into the lake of fire because their names were not written in the book of life."

The point is; The Lord opens more than one "book" (at least three books are opened - maybe more) "and the books were opened:" {at least two (2) books} "and another book was opened, which is the book of life:" {and the "book of life" would be the third book - at the very least). What is the purpose of the "other books"?

The Bible says: "and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Which "books" is He referring to? I believe it's the "other books" - NOT "the book of life". Then the "other books" contain a "record" of all of the "works" of "the dead", and "the book of life" contains the names of some saved people - unless it's BLANK! Why have a "book of life" if no one's name is recorded therein? And if there are some names recorded therein - WHO are they?

If all of the above is true, then, when the Lord goes through the books with the record of the "works" of "the dead" - there are going to be some of "the dead", who's names are going to be written in "the book of life" - because of their works. {Now this teaching would be HERESY if I were to teach that what I have said is true and applies to this Dispensation (more properly the "New" Covenant).

WORKS have NOTHING to do with SALVATION {in this Dispensation and under the "NEW COVENANT"}; BUT, when the church is translated a new Dispensation (under a different covenant) is going to begin, i.e. The Tribulation, and then the Millennium. And the $64,000.00 question is: WHO gets saved in the Tribulation and the Millennium? And the corresponding question is: HOW do they get saved?

Do they get "saved" the same way that we do? [Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. - Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.]

Lets look at some of the "churches" in the Tribulation shall we:

The "church" of Ephesus:

Revelation 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

If they get "saved" in the same way as we do, in the Tribulation, why then does the "church" at Ephesus have to worry about: [Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."] ?

Are you concerned about "overcoming" in order to "eat of the tree of life" - when it was our Lord that "overcame" for us and we have "eaten" of Him (the BREAD of life), and have NO NEED of the "tree of life"?
[Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.]
If we accept the Scriptures (as written) - something else is going on here other than "Paul's Gospel"!

And what of the "church" in Smyrna?

Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Let me ask you: Are you concerned about being "faithful" so you can get a "crown of life"? Or even more importantly: are you concerned about "overcoming", in order for you not to "be hurt of the second death"? I'm not! But those saints in the Tribulation better be!

And what about the "church" in Pergamos?

Revelation 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Again, are you concerned about "overcoming" so that you can "eat of the hidden manna"? I don't think so - but there may be some saints in the Tribulation who may "NEED" that manna! (Just like the Israelites who were in the wilderness with Moses in the past!)

And then there is the "church" in Thyatira:

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Have you noticed the emphasis on the "WORKS" of each of these "churches"? Can you see the clear "implications" that this "church" at Thyatira is NOT New Testament church (under the New Covenant)? But a "church" in the "GREAT TRIBULATION"; that must "hold fast" till Christ comes; that must keep His "works unto THE END"? Which end? The end of the Great Tribulation.

And how about the "church" in Sardis?

Revelation 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. {"dead" - What's that about?}
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Here we can see a "church" that must "watch", hold fast, and repent - because Christ is going to come "as a thief in the night" (at the end of the Tribulation). If they don't defile their garments, they will be "worthy" to walk with Christ in white. Is there any thing that we can do today to be "worthy" and earn the white garments of a saint - that the Lord Jesus Christ hasn't already done for us already? Do you get the Picture? These churches definitely are NOT New Testament "churches" under the "New Covenant".

And now we have the "church" in Philadelphia:

Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

This "church" is going to be kept "from the hour of temptation , which shall come upon all the world," (The Final hour (or days?) of the Great Tribulation?). But it also must "hold fast" that which it has, in order that "no man" will take its "crown. Are you worried about some man taking your "crown" from you? I'm not!

Notice the overcoming (again) in order to obtain a blessing? Under the "New" Covenant we "overcome" in Christ, these saints are "overcoming" on their own.

And finally we have the "church" of the Laodiceans:

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. {would God do this to a New Testament church under the "New" Covenant? I trow not!}
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Is there any chance that God would "spue" us out of His Mouth? Not on your life! What is this about "buying" something from God - hasn't He already freely "given" us all things?

Again, Christ "overcame" for us, here we have someone overcoming in order to receive a blessing.

Do you notice the emphasis on all of these churches "OVERCOMING"? How about God's emphasis on "I know thy WORKS"? Those of us under the "New Covenant are concerned about "FRUIT". But these churches have to be concerned about "WORKS"!

I know this is difficult, but I believe that the Tribulation saints must have faith and "works" in order to make it through the Tribulation; and that the saints in the Millennium must live by their "works" or else they will be lost.

This Post is already too long, but I will close for now and try to deal with the rest of your questions soon.

Aloha nui loa

[chette777]

that is my point HIA. BC and Linda have al righteous people Judged at the JSOC. but that Jusdgement seat is only for Christians.

if the works done before by righteous men are done in faith of God and pure in heart they will have their works sacntified by Christ finished work and be written inthe Lambs book of life.. but they wont face judgement until the GWT not at the JSOC

Originally Posted by Here Am I

Do you have BCV (book, chapter, verse) to prove that?

I've heard similar assertations, but have never gotten Scriptural backing from anyone on it.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Why did He need to preach to those in prison? To set them free!

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Christ had to descend before He could ascend. When He descended, He preached to the souls in prison. Upon His resurrection, those saints He preached to were seen alive again in the cities. He had indeed liberated them!

[Here Am I]

Originally Posted by George

WORKS have NOTHING to do with SALVATION {in this Dispensation and under the "NEW COVENANT"}; BUT, when the church is translated a new Dispensation (under a different covenant) is going to begin, i.e. The Tribulation, and then the Millennium. And the $64,000.00 question is: WHO gets saved in the Tribulation and the Millennium? And the corresponding question is: HOW do they get saved?

Howdy, brother!

Here's the verse I was thinking of:

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them." (Revelation 14:12, 13)

How are the Tribulation saints 'saved'? They keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

They do not receive salvation as we have, by grace through faith, NOT of works. Keeping the commandments is a work.

And when they die, their souls rest from their labours, and their works follow them.

Perhaps they are at the GWTJ?

[chette777]

Great work George,

the context of the first chapters of the book of Revelation should show who is judged at the premillennial judgement Rev 20(which looks like Christians sitting of the thrones judging) and those who were slain for their testimony are resurected enter the Millennial Kingdom. the rest of the dead have towait until the GWT to enter heaven or the Kingdom of God.

that is something Linda and BC keep leaving out the CONTEXT!

[Here Am I]

Originally Posted by Born Crucified

Even those before Christ came to earth had to witness Him. Scripture declares when He died on the cross He went and ministered to souls in prison and that He set the captive free. Even the Old Testament patriarchs had to witness the Son.

Originally Posted by Here Am I

Do you have BCV (book, chapter, verse) to prove that?

I've heard similar assertations, but have never gotten Scriptural backing from anyone on it.

Originally Posted by Born Crucified

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison

Why did He need to preach to those in prison? To set them free!

What 'spirits' did He set free? Where were they? Who were they?

It's not people in Hell, because it is souls that are in Hell, not spirits. When a person dies, their spirit goes back to God:

"All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?" (Ecclesiastes 3:20, 21)

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

So, who did Christ preach to? The verse you did not quote sheds some light:

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (1 Peter 3:18-20)

The spirits were disobedient, in the days of Noah. Who could they be? Could he be referring to the sons of God, the spirits that married the daughters of men back in Genesis 6?

It's certainly not referring to the souls of men.

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Christ had to descend before He could ascend. When He descended, He preached to the souls in prison. Upon His resurrection, those saints He preached to were seen alive again in the cities. He had indeed liberated them!

Okay, the Matthew passage refers to bodies of SAINTS.

Christ descended and preached to SPIRITS according to the 1 Peter passage you quoted above, not 'souls'.

And while Matthew says that many bodies of SAINTS arose, you seem to think that those Christ preached to were SAINTS?

I am confused by what you are saying here. A soul is not a spirit, which is not a soul. A spirit in prison is not a saint.

Maybe you could clarify this.