[Here Am I]

Originally Posted by LindaR

The Great White Throne Judgment is only for the LOST. ... There is no works based salvation by faith in Scriptures. (Romans 11:6) Salvation in all dispensations is by grace through faith...from Genesis through Revelation. (Habakkuk 2:4; Romans 4:1-8; Hebrews 11:7) The OT saints were never saved by the Law. Noah and Abraham were saved by grace because they believed God...before the Law was given. The purpose of the Law was not for salvation. The Law was given to reveal sin and to show man that he is a guilty sinner before a Holy God. (Romans 3:19-25; 7:12-13; 1 Timothy 1:9-10). It was also given to bring men to Jesus Christ. (Galatians 3:24-25).

Sister, I'm going to disagree with you here.

Here's the entire passage:

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Verse 12: Who are judged? the dead.
What is judged? the things in the books, according to their works. Not according to their names being in any book.
Verse 13: Who is judged here? The dead who were in the sea, and death, and hell. The dead in the sea were not in hell.
What is judged? every man according to his works. Not according to their names being in any book.
Verse 14: Death and hell are cast into the lake of fire. Not the dead, not those dead from the sea.
Verse 15: And of the small and great dead, who were not written in the book of life, were cast into the lake of fire.
So, of the small and great dead, who were being judged by their works, were any written in the book of life? It says that those who were NOT written in the book of life, not all. It leaves some doubt that all went into the lake of fire.

Now, regarding salvation: we know that, before Calvary, it was the works based on the law that decided if a man went to paradise/Heaven or not. A man was judged on his 'works'. In the Tribulation, it was necessary to have both faith and works in order to endure to the end.

I'm at work and it's difficult to try to look up the passages online, but I'll try to do that, later tonight, as time allows: after work we've got revival at our church, and by the time I get home I imagine I'll be pretty tired.

Anyone else who wants to jump in and explain this better than I have, be my guest.

[LindaR]

Originally Posted by Here Am I

Sister, I'm going to disagree with you here.

Here's the entire passage:

Verse 12: Who are judged? the dead.
What is judged? the things in the books, according to their works. Not according to their names being in any book.
Verse 13: Who is judged here? The dead who were in the sea, and death, and hell. The dead in the sea were not in hell.
What is judged? every man according to his works. Not according to their names being in any book.
Verse 14: Death and hell are cast into the lake of fire. Not the dead, not those dead from the sea.
Verse 15: And of the small and great dead, who were not written in the book of life, were cast into the lake of fire.
So, of the small and great dead, who were being judged by their works, were any written in the book of life? It says that those who were NOT written in the book of life, not all. It leaves some doubt that all went into the lake of fire.

In context, Revelation 20:1-15

Verses 1-3: Satan is bound and thrown into the bottomless pit for 1,000 years.

4-6: First resurrection of the martyred SAVED (those who did not receive the mark of the beast during the Tribulation). They will be made kings and princes and will reign with Christ for 1,000 years. This is the first resurrection.

7-10: Satan is loosed for a "short season" to go out and deceive the nations. (vs. 7) Apparently the number of those who follow Satan will be "as the sand of the sea". (vs. 8) The "final battle" (Gog and Magog) will be fought at this time. God will send fire down from heaven and devour those who followed Satan (they are LOST people) (vs. 9). Then Satan is cast into the lake of fire and brimstone (the antichrist and the false prophet are already there). He will be tormented in the lake of fire for eternity (vs. 10).

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (Revelation 20:11)

This verse tells us who will be judged at the Great White Throne. Why was "no place found for them?" Most likely because of the destruction by fire described in verse 10. Those who fled, were fleeing from judgment...there was no place for them to run.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (Revelation 20:12-13)

The "dead" in these verses are the UNSAVED/LOST. We know this because when you read these verses carefully and in context, you will see that those who are judged here according to the things which were written in the books, according to their works. Notice it says "the books", not the book of life. Why? it is because their names have been blotted out of the book of life when they died without trusting Christ. The judgment of the unbeliever's works results in the person himself being cast into the lake of fire. No exceptions are mentioned.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14-15)

Everyone who stands before the GWT judgment will be eternally separated from God...their final destiny is the Lake of Fire. There are no exceptions.

Now, regarding salvation: we know that, before Calvary, it was the works based on the law that decided if a man went to paradise/Heaven or not. A man was judged on his 'works'. In the Tribulation, it was necessary to have both faith and works in order to endure to the end.

I'm at work and it's difficult to try to look up the passages online, but I'll try to do that, later tonight, as time allows: after work we've got revival at our church, and by the time I get home I imagine I'll be pretty tired.

Anyone else who wants to jump in and explain this better than I have, be my guest.

Salvation is the same in the Old Testament (before Calvary) as it is in the New Testament...it is by grace through faith. Here are two good articles from Way of Life concerning this topic:

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/salvationot.htm

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/salvationot2.htm

[George]

"Salvation is the same in the Old Testament (before Calvary) as it is in the New Testament...it is by grace through faith. Here are two good articles from Way of Life concerning this topic:"

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/salvationot.htm

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/salvationot2.htm

Aloha all,

Just in case some on the Forum are unaware - "Way of Life Literature" = David Cloud ; who couldn't be wrong when it comes to this issue than a Catholic. We have had David Cloud's "disciples" on this Forum before and have gone through this whole issue in great depth. {Is David Cloud the "Final Authority" in all matters of faith and practise?}

To LindaR (and any one else) Please check out the various Posts by brother Steve Rich: AV1611 Bible Forums > General Chit-Chat > Starting with Page 6 > Post #58; Page 10 > Post #97; Page 13 > Post #126 & #130; Page 14 > Post #137; Page 27 > Post #264 & 265; Page 28 > Post #273; and Page 28 > Post #275.

I cannot recall ever reading any book or essay that explains salvation and "faith" as well as brother Steve's Posts. I see no point in going over "plowed ground" again and highly recommend that LindaR (or any one else who may be interested) read all of these Posts before commenting on the issue any further.

[Debau]

Originally Posted by George

Aloha all,

Just in case some on the Forum are unaware - "Way of Life Literature" = David Cloud ; who couldn't be wrong when it comes to this issue than a Catholic. We have had David Cloud's "disciples" on this Forum before and have gone through this whole issue in great depth. {Is David Cloud the "Final Authority" in all matters of faith and practise?}

To LindaR (and any one else) Please check out the various Posts by brother Steve Rich: AV1611 Bible Forums > General Chit-Chat > Starting with Page 6 > Post #58; Page 10 > Post #97; Page 13 > Post #126 & #130; Page 14 > Post #137; Page 27 > Post #264 & 265; Page 28 > Post #273; and Page 28 > Post #275.
I cannot recall ever reading any book or essay that explains salvation and "faith" as well as brother Steve's Posts. I see no point in going over "plowed ground" again and highly recommend that LindaR (or any one else who may be interested) read all of these Posts before commenting on the issue any further.

George,
I can't find 'em. Are there subject headings or dates to narrow them down?
Thanks,
any one else

[Diligent]

Just a helpful hint:

Rather than posting pointers to specific pages of threads, which can change depending on settings people have, it is better to post a direct URL to the post you want to mention.

Take this post. At the top-right of this post is a number (like #25 or something). Right-click it and select "Copy Link Location" or "Copy URL" or "Copy link" (depends on your browser). Then paste it into your post. The system will automatically hot-link it so that people can just click it to read the post you are talking about.

[chette777]

Originally Posted by LindaR

[/b] The "dead" in these verses are the UNSAVED/LOST. We know this because when you read these verses carefully and in context, you will see that those who are judged here according to the things which were written in the books, according to their works. Notice it says "the books", not the book of life. Why? it is because their names have been blotted out of the book of life when they died without trusting Christ.

thre is your problem in understanding the scripture literally.

1) you come to the verse asuming that dead means unsaved/lost.

2) there are only two books. written in the books is both the book of works and the lambs book of life. a name is written in the books, and they were judged by what was written in the books. following Gods simple logic, if their name is written in the books Plural) that is what they are judged by and then they go to heaven, if their name is only writen inthe book of works then they go to hell. they are judge out of what is written inthe books not book. and there is only one book of works not two or more.

3) you have salvation the same in every dispensation (so I suggest you follow George's advice and read the links he suggests), but understand all salvation has an eliment of faith involved. a requirement if they believed God in the OT was to do something generally for Israel it was to perform sacrifices at the prescribed times that God set forth or observance of Laws, including the ten commandments were required for salvation. all put one commandment is rewritten by Paul for Christians today (9 out of 10 are taught by Paul and they are not part of salvation).

so do us a favor find any verse inthe OT that has them looking forward to Jesus Christ for salvation? if you find one this would mean that they knew aforetime that their Messiah was to be sacrificed. we know it was prophecied but they did not undertand it. 1 Cor 2:8 tells us had the princes of this world (that would be all the prophets, kings, priests and Satan) known it (the Lord to be crucified), they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

so if everyone in the OT who was saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ finished work of the cross (of which they could not becasue they did not know of it) show us a clear teaching fromteh OT where that is said to be true?

what you are sharing is someones theology D Clouds and H Morris. it is a man made doctrine. the bible not these men are the final authority of the Salvation.

Originally Posted by chette777

thre is your problem in understanding the scripture literally.

1) you come to the verse asuming that dead means unsaved/lost.

2) there are only two books. written in the books is both the book of works and the lambs book of life. a name is written in the books, and they were judged by what was written in the books. following Gods simple logic, if their name is written in the books Plural) that is what they are judged by and then they go to heaven, if their name is only writen inthe book of works then they go to hell. they are judge out of what is written inthe books not book. and there is only one book of works not two or more.

3) you have salvation the same in every dispensation (so I suggest you follow George's advice and read the links he suggests), but understand all salvation has an eliment of faith involved. a requirement if they believed God in the OT was to do something generally for Israel it was to perform sacrifices at the prescribed times that God set forth or observance of Laws, including the ten commandments were required for salvation. all put one commandment is rewritten by Paul for Christians today (9 out of 10 are taught by Paul and they are not part of salvation).

so do us a favor find any verse inthe OT that has them looking forward to Jesus Christ for salvation? if you find one this would mean that they knew aforetime that their Messiah was to be sacrificed. we know it was prophecied but they did not undertand it. 1 Cor 2:8 tells us had the princes of this world (that would be all the prophets, kings, priests and Satan) known it (the Lord to be crucified), they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

so if everyone in the OT who was saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ finished work of the cross (of which they could not becasue they did not know of it) show us a clear teaching fromteh OT where that is said to be true?

what you are sharing is someones theology D Clouds and H Morris. it is a man made doctrine. the bible not these men are the final authority of the Salvation.

FACT: The saved dead are resurrected 1,000 years prior to the resurrected wicked dead.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

It is the wicked dead who are resurrected to stand before the Great White Throne judgment. It is those who are resurrected AFTER the 1,000 years whom the second death has power. Not one righteous person will stand before the Great White Throne for judgment... not one.

FACT: The Great White Throne judgment will be the final judgment. At it, books will be opened and another book will be opened.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

FACT: There are more than two books. The 'books' were opened indicates not a singular book, but plural... books. And another book was opened. 'And another book' indicates there is another book beside the books that are previously opened. Scripture does not say exactly how many books are opened, but it is clear it is more than two.

Old Testament declares Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him for righteousness. Belief is faith. It took faith to save the patriarch's of the Old Testament just as it takes faith for man to be saved today.

Hebrews 11 records what we preachers like to refer to as "The Hall of Faith," or "The Walk of Faith." In it, many Old Testament characters are named as having had faith that pleased God.

Linda is not wrong in her expository teaching on the twentieth chapter of Revelation, Chette.

You may want to go back and study that chapter again.

[LindaR]

Originally Posted by George

Aloha all,

Just in case some on the Forum are unaware - "Way of Life Literature" = David Cloud ; who couldn't be wrong when it comes to this issue than a Catholic. We have had David Cloud's "disciples" on this Forum before and have gone through this whole issue in great depth. {Is David Cloud the "Final Authority" in all matters of faith and practise?}

To LindaR (and any one else) Please check out the various Posts by brother Steve Rich: AV1611 Bible Forums > General Chit-Chat > Starting with Page 6 > Post #58; Page 10 > Post #97; Page 13 > Post #126 & #130; Page 14 > Post #137; Page 27 > Post #264 & 265; Page 28 > Post #273; and Page 28 > Post #275.

I cannot recall ever reading any book or essay that explains salvation and "faith" as well as brother Steve's Posts. I see no point in going over "plowed ground" again and highly recommend that LindaR (or any one else who may be interested) read all of these Posts before commenting on the issue any further.

If I could find them, I would read them. You need to narrow down the search, i.e. the link to the thread or the thread name would help to find them.

BTW, David Cloud is NOT my "Final Authority"! God's Word, rightly divided, is my "Final Authority". Just because I quote David Cloud, doesn't mean he's my "guru". I check out ALL teachings with God's Word, especially teachings I read on forum boards:

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (Acts 17:11)

[George]

To LindaR (and any one else) Please check out the various Posts by brother Steve Rich: AV1611 Bible Forums > General Chit-Chat > Starting with Page 6 > Post #58; Page 10 > Post #97; Page 13 > Post #126 & #130; Page 14 > Post #137; Page 27 > Post #264 & 265; Page 28 > Post #273; and Page 28 > Post #275.

Originally Posted by Debau

George,
I can't find 'em. Are there subject headings or dates to narrow them down?
Thanks,
any one else

Aloha brother Debau and sister LindaR,

Sooo sorry - my mistake! {I could plead - "senior moment" }

Brother Steve Rich = Stvvv1611, and the part that I omitted is under the heading: AV 1611 Bible Forums > General Chit-Chat > Dr. Ruckman > Starting at Page 6 > Post #58.

http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...8&postcount=58 {Wow! It Works!}

I believe the rest of the information that I gave is accurate. Again I apologize.

I downloaded all of brother Steve's treatise on the issue and have saved it as a Word file - it amounts to 43 pages of type written material, some of the best I have ever read.

I hope it may be of some help to you. {Oh, and by the way, it was written in reply to "Jerry Bouey", a follower of David Cloud's.}

[chette777]

Originally Posted by Born Crucified

FACT: The saved dead are resurrected 1,000 years prior to the resurrected wicked dead.

FACT: The Great White Throne judgment will be the final judgment. At it, books will be opened and another book will be opened.

FACT: There are more than two books. The 'books' were opened indicates not a singular book, but plural... books. And another book was opened. 'And another book' indicates there is another book beside the books that are previously opened. Scripture does not say exactly how many books are opened, but it is clear it is more than two.

1) I stand corrected more than one book of works. could it be it is for alot of people at this judgement?

2)the resurrected dead at the beginning of the millenial kingdom are the saints who lost their lives during the great tribulation (context). this is not Job or Abraham. And the GWT is not called the resurrection of the wicked dead. they are part of a end times resurrection as Mary the sister of Martha understood it.

the second death and the final resurrection are not the same things. you seem to be making that quite clear. Nowhere does it say the final resurection is the second death. you make the final ressurection and those in it guilty of the second death by association. It is the second death that those in the first resurrection have no fear of. only those in the second resurrection that don't have their name in the lambs book have to fear the second death. show me any scripture that says no one at the final resurrection has their name in the lambs book of life. it only says those who dont (meaning that there are some who do).

3) No one said the the great white throne was not the final judgment. my point was the dead are judged and whomever's name was not found in the lambs book was cast in to the lake of fire. that tells us some did have their names in the lambs book. it doesn't say and no one's names were found in the lambs book of life and they were all cast into the lake of fire.

4) ALL salvation has an eliment of faith. My example was for Israel not Abraham. And I understand Abraham was a type of Gentile salvation by faith only but not in Christ finished work. He was not looking forward to the cross of Jesus Christ as Linda, whom you patted on the back (Job and Elihu knew better than to do that), claimed earlier all OT saints were.

5) I will not discuss this any further with any of you we can safely say we disagree. My KJV Stands as my final authroity and it doesn't agree with you either no matter how much you claim expository study is good (Female teaching men). Sorry I wont submit to it here or in church. My Bible stands alone on this.