[Easy E]

Remember at the end of the book, God Himself discredits the words of the men who spoke against Job, including Eliphaz. Therefore, the words of Eliphaz are not to be considered as fact, especially when not supported elsewhere in the Scriptures by a more reliable source.

Are you saying that God does put trust in the saints?

Or that the heavens are clean in his sight?

[Brother Tim]

I am only saying that the words of Eliphaz are suspect. If he stated a truth in the verse you quoted, then there should be another location in the Scriptures where the truth is repeated. Is that too much to ask? Since God accused him of not speaking the truth, I'll side with Him over a question of logic.

[chette777]

I speak of the heavens are not clean in his sight.

it is repeated by Bildad in the same book. remember not all that they spoke was lies, a little lie as often masked in truth in order to make it look like the truth. What they spoke that was not truth was that God was punishing Job for hiding sin in his heart, and that God doesn't bring adversity against righteous men but prosperity. that is the error of the prosperity theology today.

Before men Job was righteous. but before God none are righteous.

there are no suspect scripture in the Bible. It is all the word of God. wheter or not the men whom are quoted were liars. Let God be true and EVERY MAN a liar.

I am amazed at the fact that Mature Christians are not willing to make none doctrinal conjecture of Scriputres. But they are willing to make conjuectors when it comes to doctrinal matters.

The word tells us that those things which God has revealed are for us. but then we don't want to talk about some of what God has revealed like the creation of a firmament on which the day God made it he does not claim it was good.

When you see that God places things with in the firmament. this means God is outside the firmament He on one side and we on the inside. Don't take that wrongly as God's essential power is in all things and he can't be separated from his power which lays in the fact that all things are held togetehr by him.

So anything that is created to separate us from God can not be a good thing.

It is good, in the fact that this firmament is a place of confinment for sin, Satan and the devils so they cannot permiate any further corruption in the Abode of God.

It is good in the fact that God can work out a plan of salvation for fallen man. and by his foreknowledge he knew all these things woud come to pass on his creation in the firmament.

It is good for in a appointed time this firmament will be rolled up like a scroll never again to cause separation between God and his creation. when he make all things new. those all things are that which is inside the firmement.

We should never fear to explore the vast riches of God. for we May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; of all that God has done in this firmament. these words Of Scripture are not just limited to the love of Christ as many interpret them. it is to know all that God has done physiclly and spiritually in this firmament.

[Brother Tim]

Chette, you have totally confused me!

You say,

So anything that is created to separate us from God can not be a good thing.

And then you immediately follow with three times, "It is good..."

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by chette777

I speak of the heavens are not clean in his sight.

it is repeated by Bildad in the same book. remember not all that they spoke was lies, a little lie as often masked in truth in order to make it look like the truth. What they spoke that was not truth was that God was punishing Job for hiding sin in his heart, and that God doesn't bring adversity against righteous men but prosperity. that is the error of the prosperity theology today.

Before men Job was righteous. but before God none are righteous.

there are no suspect scripture in the Bible. It is all the word of God. wheter or not the men whom are quoted were liars. Let God be true and EVERY MAN a liar.

I am amazed at the fact that Mature Christians are not willing to make none doctrinal conjecture of Scriputres. But they are willing to make conjuectors when it comes to doctrinal matters.

The word tells us that those things which God has revealed are for us. but then we don't want to talk about some of what God has revealed like the creation of a firmament on which the day God made it he does not claim it was good.

When you see that God places things with in the firmament. this means God is outside the firmament He on one side and we on the inside. Don't take that wrongly as God's essential power is in all things and he can't be separated from his power which lays in the fact that all things are held togetehr by him.

So anything that is created to separate us from God can not be a good thing.

It is good, in the fact that this firmament is a place of confinment for sin, Satan and the devils so they cannot permiate any further corruption in the Abode of God.

It is good in the fact that God can work out a plan of salvation for fallen man. and by his foreknowledge he knew all these things woud come to pass on his creation in the firmament.

It is good for in a appointed time this firmament will be rolled up like a scroll never again to cause separation between God and his creation. when he make all things new. those all things are that which is inside the firmement.

We should never fear to explore the vast riches of God. for we May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; of all that God has done in this firmament. these words Of Scripture are not just limited to the love of Christ as many interpret them. it is to know all that God has done physiclly and spiritually in this firmament.

You finally get to it, lol. I was wondering when you were going to come on out with why you thought God didn't call the firmament good. I think you are on to something. I do agree with both you and Tim. I think that the firmament is good, but when God looked back upon all creation and called it good it was an over arching sense, as in "this all is good, and will serve my purpose." But that it is also not good because God knew that dispite it being necessary, that it was a boundary. It's interesting that you say that this firmament is meant to keep the those "angels which kept not their first estate" from corrupting heaven, when even the Scriptures call their leader the prince of the power of the air:

Ephesians 2:2-3 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

I think there may be other verses that show Satan as having some sort of residence in the firmament, but I may be mistaken.

Much Love in Christ,
Stephen

[Easy E]

I am only saying that the words of Eliphaz are suspect. If he stated a truth in the verse you quoted, then there should be another location in the Scriptures where the truth is repeated. Is that too much to ask? Since God accused him of not speaking the truth, I'll side with Him over a question of logic.

Agreed, but this is not a question of logic. I asked a direct question and, I am sorry brother, but you did not answer the question.

But after some digging, I found a verse to answer your question. Jesus himself talks about what the heavens' future is.

Mat_24:29, Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

See, this isn't talking about the heaven where God sits. Why would they be shaken during the Tribulation. There's a party going on up there, man! Also remember that stars can sometimes mean angels (in this case fallen angels) Rev 1:20.

These dirty heavens and their inhabitants have a future in store for them and its not pretty.

[Easy E]

Actually another verse popped into my head.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

We are not battling politicians. They are flesh and blood. We are battling something a little higher than that and I am speaking geographically.

[chette777]

and that's true. it speaks geographically.

to answer Tim. though the firmament was not said to be good the day it was created. It is good in fulfilling God's will of separation of sin from his presence, in that sence that creation is good. But the question was not for the general statement of all he created was very good. But as to why on that day, unlike all the others he does not claim it as good.


The stars created are not Satan or Angels they are literal stars, Sun and Moon place inside the firmament.

Satan and the Angels both Holy and Fallen are called sons of the morning and sometime refered to as stars. the the creation in vs 14-16 is not them because those stars,moon and sun are for signs, for seasons, days months and for lights. Angels were not created for that purpose.

Devils are in the Heavenlies (which is the deep they are concigned(SP?) to until the day of Judgement.

[George]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

I must call attention to the Job 15:15 quote used by EasyE and supported by Chette. Please notice from whom the quote is given.
Remember at the end of the book, God Himself discredits the words of the men who spoke against Job, including Eliphaz. Therefore, the words of Eliphaz are not to be considered as fact, especially when not supported elsewhere in the Scriptures by a more reliable source.

Aloha brother Tim,

I am not taking sides in this debate, simply because there is so little to go on, but I do have a question to ask you: Can you cite anything (any "fact") that any of these men (Job, his three "friends", or Eliphaz) said or stated that was not true?

I did a study on the book of Job earlier this year and I found 175 things (facts) that most Christians today are ignorant of. Factually I could find no place where these men lied or were mistaken.

Where Job's 3 friends were "off", was in judging that Job's sufferings, trials, and tribulations were due to some "sin" in Job's life. They unrighteously misjudged Job's testing (and that's what angered God). Eliphaz "figured it out".

God didn't jump them because they had stated anything wrong (factually), except for the fact they they had misjudged what was going on in Job's life and attributed it to "sin" in his life (the makes God angry - something we should keep in mind when judging a fellow brother in Christ).

What most people don't realize is that these men were "Contemporary" with both Noah and Shem; and Noah had been "Contemporary" all the way back to Enos (Seth's son); That is Noah "bridged" the "gap" between Enos and Terah (Abraham's father).

The following "Tables" demonstrate why Job and his friends knew so much about God, the Flood, Adam, sin, etc., etc. (They were "contemporary" with the men who had gone through the Flood!):

TABLE SHOWING WHICH OF THE PATRIARCHS WERE

CONTEMPORARY WITH EACH OTHER – {Before the Flood}

ADAM was contemporary with: SETH – 800 years; ENOS – 695 years; CAINAN – 605 years; MAHALALEEL – 535 years; JARED – 470 years; ENOCH – 308 years; METHUSELAH - 243 years; and LAMECH – 56 years.

NOAH was contemporary with: ENOS – 84 years; CAINAN – 179 years; MAHALALEEL – 234 years; JARED – 366 years; METHUSELAH – 600 years; LAMECH – 595 years;

SHEM was contemporary with: METHUSELAH – 98 years; LAMECH – 93; years

TABLE SHOWING WHICH OF THE PATRIARCHS WERE

CONTEMPORARY WITH EACH OTHER – {After the Flood}

NOAH was contemporary with: SHEM – 448 years (total); ARPHAXAD - 348 years; SALAH – 313 years; EBER – 283 years; *PELEG – 239 years; REU – 219 years; SERUG – 187 years; NAHOR – 157 years; TERAH – 128 years.

SHEM was contemporary with: ARPHAXAD – 438 years; SALAH – 433 years; EBER – 435 years; *PELEG – 239 years; REU – 239 years; SERUG – 230 years; NAHOR – 148 years; TERAH – 205 years; ABRAHAM - 150 years.

ABRAHAM was contemporary with: SHEM – 150 years; ARPHAXAD – 88 years; SALAH – 118 years; EBER – 175 years; REU – 18 years; SERUG – 41 years; TERAH – 75 years.

I have more information on my web page under "Bible Lessons" - "The Most Extraordinary Man In The Bible".

Job probably lived somewhere between Peleg and Abraham {Because of Job's age - that is Job lived longer than Abraham but less than Eber, Salah, and Arphaxad}

Once people realize that Job and his friends were contemporary with both Noah and Shem, it's not that hard to understand why they "knew so much" about the past {They spoke about the "ancient" and the "very aged" - "much elder than thy (Job's) father".}

If you know of any "factual errors" in any of the statements made by Job, his 3 "friends", or Eliphaz - I for one would like to know what they are.

[chette777]

Thanks George for that added blessing. I knew about the contemporariness of Job and his friends with Noah and Shem. but it sometimes good to see it afresh. I am sure it blest everyone else too.

Just a reminder. The things I have been sharing are not doctrinal, and have little scriputral support(there are some). we have to stretch ourselves in dwelving into these things. so as long as we remember if we disagree with God he is always right. these things we discuss are not for babes in the word but for mature Christians willing to know the hieght, wideth, the breath and depth of things the Lord has revealed but doesn't say much about in scripture. this is for fun. But God is to be glorified.

So enjoy dwelving into the things of God. Just don't knock each other and remember not to make it a doctrine.