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#11
08-29-2008, 05:18 PM
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Hi Scott,
Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." The thought of standing before Jesus Christ, knowing that I am saved but having done nothing for God, not abiding in his word, not telling people about my salvation, being ashamed of the Gospel Of Christ, worried about what the world would think of me, rather than how My LORD Jesus would look upon me, STRUCK FEAR into my heart, I lived in unrepentant sin, I knew what I was doing was wrong, I grieved the Holy Ghost. My Grandfather speaks of this time as when I "went outside the hedge to see what the world was like", and Boy did I sure find out what the world was like and it almost killed me. I came back to the LORD because there is no one else, nothing else that can make things "better" not drugs, not people, not places, nothing but Christ. I hadn't read my Bible in a long time, I had prayed but the conviction just wasn't there, I was so ashamed of the things that I had done that I didn't know how to make them right with Jesus, I believed that I was still saved but I was going to suffer some serious loss at the bema, and that no matter what I done there was no way I could make these things right. I cannot explain in words the thoughts I had of standing before My LORD having done nothing for him. Then at rock bottom I had my heart pricked, Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest I took EVERYTHING I could not deal with and took it to the foot of the Cross and left it there, I promised Christ and I promised myself that I would live for him and not worry about the world, abide in his word, speak the truth, tell others about my salvation, not be ashamed of the Gospel. I wept, I prayed, I read my Bible, scripture upon scripture began to speak to my heart again like it did when I was a young boy and from that point onwards I have felt peace, I cannot undo the time I was backslidden, but I can draw a valuable lesson from it, these things I have been shown that I may free others from the same snares, the same strongholds others may be in, that I myself have been choked with, the cares of this world. Those who propose that anyone backslidden wasn't saved to begin with, or may have lost their salvation I say this to them with scripture. Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ Some will suffer loss, some will have no rewards, but they themselves will be saved. George mentions David asking for the Joy of his salvation to be restored, He was backslidden,I know what this is like, I too lost that Joy. But as for my Eternal salvation "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." By Gods Grace I am saved through faith in Christs finished work on the cross, I did nothing to save myself, Jesus saved me from eternal damnation, it is His free gift, his righteousness is imputed to me. I have done nothing to deserve it and I can do nothing to lose it. How about that! Psalm 89:30-34 "If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments: Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. Nevertheless my loving kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips." Jesus promised "Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." I deserved to be cast out! Im so blessed that My God is faithful, even when I am not. |
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#12
08-29-2008, 05:59 PM
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#13
08-29-2008, 09:24 PM
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I hope that you will look up all of the verses (in context) that I supplied for each point. The point I am trying to make is simply: Although God made getting saved simple (even a child can believe) - the operation that takes place in a believer the moment he or she believes the Gospel is far more complex than any of us can conceive. Imagine! When we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and in his substitutionary death and shed blood for our sins - We become sons of God! [John 1:12] God comes and dwells in us! [1Corinthians 3:16] We receive the mind of Christ! [1Corinthians 2:16] There are literally dozens more verses showing that the "new birth" is a whole lot more than just a way to avoid Hell. Because we have this "assurance", does that give us a license to sin? God forbid! [Romans 6:1-2, 15] Read Romans Chapters 6, 7, & 8 and the Book of Galatians - these Books are "spiritually discerned" [1Corinthians 2:14] and if understood, they give the clearest picture of our salvation in the Bible (along with Ephesians showing our relationship to the Lord Jesus Christ). The Apostle Peter said of Paul's Letters: [2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.] Peter knew what he was talking about! But, if you can get a hold of what Paul is teaching in these Books it will be a great source of confidence - in the Lord, NOT in your flesh - that will enable you to go on for the Lord (just like David) even when you do sin, so that instead of getting downhearted, discouraged, and defeated you can go to the Lord and repent of your sin and ask for forgiveness and get back in the battle, instead of worrying about whether you "lost it". Remember what the Lord told Peter: John 13:6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? 7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter. 8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is CLEAN EVERY WHIT: and ye are clean, but not all. 11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean. Are you washed (in His blood)? If you are - you are "clean" every whit! The only thing that gets "dirty" is your feet (from your walk!). When your feet get "dirty" go to the Lord and have Him wash them (your "clean" all over - except for your feet!): Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Do you think that because we fail to walk in the Spirit and sin, that the Lord Jesus Christ is going to "fail" to accomplish what He has set out to do? I trow not! He is going to have a glorious church - without spot or wrinkle, holy and without blemish! And He is the One who is going to "sanctify" it; He is the One that is going to present it to Himself - and nothing that we do is going to change that (so we may as well get with "the program").  Please remember that God deals with those he saves as SONS: Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. It's very clear - those who believe the Gospel & receive Christ as Saviour become sons. If we sin we can go to the Lord and get our feet "clean". If we sin and neglect to go for a "cleansing", the the Lord will chasten and scourge us (because we are His sons). He may correct us; spank us; beat us; and even take some of us home (due to our sins), but He is NOT going to cast us into Hell - after all we're His children! I have many more verses that I will present to bolster those I have already posted. Our God is far more powerful and more able than we could ever imagine. I praise God that He saved me 50 years ago. There are many things that I have done in my life that I regret; many things that I would do over; and many things that I wish I never did in those 50 years - but there is one thing I have NEVER regretted, and that is the day that I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and received Him as my personal Saviour! There is nothing in all the world to compare with that - I have "the witness" in me, and no one can take that away from me! 1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. Have you got the Son? Then you have "LIFE" - "ETERNAL LIFE" (notice verse 12 doesn't have a double syllable word in it!). When people reject this "record" they are calling God a liar! Is it any wonder that I get upset with heretics that call God's "record" into question and then blaspheme God by denying the record that He has given us - "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life". He gave it - I've got it! Praise God! Last edited by George; 08-29-2008 at 09:31 PM. |
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#14
08-30-2008, 03:22 AM
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Saved
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I talked to my wife at dinner last night, and just ran some questions about the subject without letting on exactly what the subject was. Questions about those who are living in sin, and just rejecting what the word said, and literally saying they will take there chances, knowing what the word says. Those who reject the word of God, King James Bible, and are lost in the false doctrines of the perversion versions. She had concluded that they never where really saved. So I said you are once saved always saved, she no I’m not, and I said you are because you just don’t believe they ever where saved. People are rejecting the word of God. They may have never been saved to begin with, I guess they are like those in the sower of the seed, that believed for a while, but fell away. But I guess they never really believed, really, and felled from where? Where these in the parable ever saved or just never saved to begin with? I can almost hang with these where never where saved to begin with but then that makes be believe that the process of believing is way more complex that just coming to Jesus as a little child. How can you believe for a while? |
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#15
08-30-2008, 07:25 PM
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Aloha brother Scott,
In regards to some of your comments: I seldom ever judge whether someone is saved or not saved (just because of their conduct), since I don't know their hearts. I might "wonder", but it's a judgment I don't have to make and so I try real hard not to engage in judging the matter. I have run into a few (a very few) people who have "claimed" to be Christians and who have absolutely NO FRUIT [Galatians 5:22-23; Ephesians 5:9] in their lives at all, and I wonder. But someone with NO FRUIT is different from a Christian who may have fallen into temptation; has backslide; or is caught up into the cares and riches of this world. Generally speaking there will be at least SOME FRUIT in their lives. Anyway, since I don't have to judge the genuineness of someone's salvation I avoid making that judgment. Quote:
WHO – Was speaking? WHO– Was he speaking to? WHO– Does this apply to? WHO– Should follow and obey? WHO– Is this written to? Luke 8:5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it. 6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. 7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it. 8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. 9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? 10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. WHO is speaking – Jesus Christ {before His death, burial, & resurrection – before the establishment of the church.} WHO is he speaking to – {His Jewish disciples - before His death, burial, & resurrection & before the establishment of the church.} WHAT is he talking about – {“the mysteries of the Kingdom of God” – NOT necessarily church doctrine for Christians.} 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. {No One Is Saved) 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. {They "Believed" - So They Are Saved. They “Fall Away” – They DON’T become - UNSAVED”} See Verse 12: "lest they should believe and be saved" 14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. {Saved – “No Fruit to Perfection” – NOT WORKS!} 15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. 16 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light. 17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad. 18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have. Nowhere in the discourse is it said that anyone loses Salvation, or goes to Hell. If someone believes this, it’s because they are “reading into” the verse – something it does NOT Say. WHO Does this apply to – The Jews of Jesus’ day {WHO were expecting and looking forward to the establishment of “The Kingdom”} WHO Should follow and obey - The Jews of Jesus’ day {WHO were obligated to OBEY the Lord Jesus Christ, since He was their legitimate KING.} WHO Is this written to – The Christians {The saints of God – Jew & Gentile alike} Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. This doesn’t mean that we throw away or discard the “teachings” (principles & precepts) that: “The seed is the word of God”; or “the devil . . . taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved”; or “they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away”; or “they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection”; or “they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience” - These verses can be used “spiritually” to teach that Christians should be careful to avoid temptation; and be cautious of riches & pleasures; and should seek to “keep” God’s word and seek to bring forth “fruit” in their lives – but it should NEVER be used to teach that we (born-again children of God) can LOSE our Salvation! Doctrinally it doesn’t apply. {But, do you notice the importance of the condition of a person's heart?} The Scriptures are written for our learning, but we must be very careful how we apply them so that we are not “ashamed” at His coming. 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. I hope this may be of some help to you in understanding how I seek to “rightly divide the word of truth.” |
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#16
09-10-2008, 07:28 PM
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I thank God for His Word. There are some difficult passages in the Scriptures that would cause one to stop and think about the whole "guaranteed salvation no matter what" premise. I know it can depend on how you approach the passage also.
One such place for me is found in Matthew 13:41-13:42. It seems to be speaking of Christians that continue in sin and at the end of this age being excluded from salvation. If anyone has studied this passage at length and cares to offer any illumination upon the context, feel free to do so. |
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#17
09-11-2008, 02:00 AM
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Re: LZM Inquiry Matthew 13:41-42
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Aloha LZM, In order to understand the Scriptures you must "rightly divide the word of truth". [2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.]
WHO – Said that? WHO– Was he speaking to? WHO– Does this apply to? WHO– Should follow and obey? WHO– Is this written to or for? In addition to the "WHO" Principal, there are three "ancillary" questions that should be also considered: "WHERE", "WHAT", and "WHEN". Look at the verses "in context" and then ask "WHO": Quote:
The Lord then put forth 2 more "parables" about the "kingdom of heaven" (the "mustard seed" & "leaven"). When he was done his disciples came to Him and asked Him: "Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field." [Matthew 13:36] Before anyone can even begin to understand WHO these verses are to be applied to, they must first ask: WHAT is the "kingdom of heaven"? And WHERE is it located? I don't have room to go into a detailed explanation about the "kingdom of heaven" or the differences between it and the "kingdom of God", except to say there is a "difference". And that "difference" makes all the "difference" in the world as to how we are to understand WHO these verses are applied to. The term "kingdom of heaven" is found only in the Gospel of Matthew (the Gospel of the King of Israel), and nowhere else in the entire Bible (32 verses > 33 occurrences). The term "kingdom of God" can be found only in the New Testament (69 verses > 70 occurrences). It is found in: 5 verses in Matthew {If the two terms are synonymous - WHY the distinction?}; 15 verses in Mark; 32 verses in Luke; 2 verses in John; and the remaining 15 verses are found in Acts (7 verses), and exclusively, in Paul's letters (Romans - 2Thessalonians). All of these facts have a bearing on WHO these verses are to be applied to. We now go to the Lord Jesus Christ's explanation of the "parable" {Please note: Every single substantiative word has a distinct meaning - which is true about all "Parables".} Quote:
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I don't have room to demonstrate, but I assure you that we (born again Christians - Members of the body of Christ - i.e. "The Bride") are NOT "the children of the kingdom of heaven" - "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." [Ephesians 5:30]. And secondly God is NOT going to burn up His children (whoever they may be), after all they are the Father's children, NOT the devil's! This is known as: "rightly dividing the word of truth". If a person does not recognize the "differences" between, the JEW (Israel), the GENTILE (the World), and the CHURCH (Christians), they cannot "make sense" of the Scriptures. If a person FAILS to "rightly divide" - in the end they will have to "HARMONIZE" the Scriptures, and make them "FIT" together in some manner that will contradict other Scriptures. God has set up His Holy Bible in such a manner that the only way that we can discern the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, is by "rightly dividing the word of truth". If we want God's approval we "must" rightly divide God's word. The Lord did not "suggest" that we rightly divide His word - He has commanded us to! Last edited by George; 09-11-2008 at 02:06 AM. |
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#18
09-11-2008, 08:44 AM
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Not a good choice to defend lost of salvation.
I am having a little problem with; [KJ] Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15 Is not verse more for establishing hope and love than doctrine? Just a thought
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#19
09-11-2008, 09:41 AM
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To try and change that verse, even bring into debate its meaning harms your testimony as a truth seeker, the ONE SINGLE COMMANDMENT by God to Study and divide his written Word, not being ashamed of the Gospel of Christ and His truth.
As you claim to be on the search for "truth" Scott I dont understand how you can take that verse out of its context. To bring about a different meaning to that single portion of scripture does what modern versions do, TAKES AWAY the commandment to study God's Word! |
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#20
09-11-2008, 01:49 PM
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Re: Scott's Comments on 2Timothy 2:16
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Aloha brother Scott, I cannot understand why you should have "a little problem" with 2 Timothy 2:15. What is the "problem"? This verse is not found in almost all of the English "per-versions" - and yet it is the "KEY" to understanding God's word (words). The modern English "per-versions" have REMOVED the verse from God's Holy Scriptures - WHY would you want to CHANGE it? [Proverbs 8:8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them. 9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.] Not everything in the Bible is about "love" and "hope". If you will check out the whole Book of 2 Timothy you will find that the word "love" doesn't even show up in the 2nd. or 3rd. Chapters! The word "hope" doesn't show up in the whole Book! WHY would you "INSERT" WORDS into God's word that aren't there? I have painstakingly tried to demonstrate to you (and others), out of the Scriptures, WHY "rightly dividing the word of truth" is so extremely important for all Christians to understand, and WHY we must obey God's command to "study" according to His instructions or else we are going to be ashamed. The verse is perfectly clear. There is no ambiguity or mystery involved. I broke it down so even a "babe" in Christ could understand it {If they want to}:
1 Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reasonof use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. You are having "a little problem" with something that is "basic" and "easy to understand" - how are you going to understand the "deep things of God"? [1Corinthians 2:10]. Bible believers don't have "a little problem" with any part of the Scriptures. They may have a "little problem" understanding a verse, BUT they NEVER have a "problem" with the Scriptures themselves. You have a lot of questions (and that's fine), but you have got to become like the Bereans [Acts 17:11] who searched the Scriptures whether a thing was so. As you study the Bible - accept the words (where they stand & as they stand); don't try to figure out the "meaning" (or you will "insert" your own thoughts into the Scriptures); and don't rely on earthly wisdom in trying to understand God's Holy words, instead - seek out the Holy Spirit's guidance on an issue and receive "the love of the truth" [2Thessalonians 2:10] The Holy Spirit will "guide you into all truth" - BUT, you MUST be WILLING to ACCEPT it and NOT continually QUESTION it. |
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