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#11
08-12-2008, 11:28 PM
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The perserverance of the saints is different to eternal security.
the P in TULIP is a conditional security. It is based upon good works, and continual faithfulness. It is also built upon the preceeding TULI. In the calvinists logic, God elects & declares, atones , regenerates, irresistably calls and since God's will is never stopped or hindered, all those he chose must be saved in the end, and there salvation is kept secure by what is called the doctrine of the perserverance of the saints. So, in effect, your whole whine was right. The perseverance of the saints is a lie from the devil, to keep people in bondage of works and not open their eyes to the liberty that is in Christ. As george said, this is no freedom to sin. Eternal security IS truth. Not Perseverance of the Saints. Eternal Security. Not taught by Calvin or Augustine. Eternal Security is God's free gift of salvation, bestowed upon those who have faith, without any works contributing to the reception of that gift Romans 4:5 |
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#12
08-14-2008, 09:44 PM
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Greetings Luke,
You are correct in saying that eternal security is truth. Eternal security is definitely taught in the scriptures of the Apostles and the teachings of Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. However, "once saved, always saved" is not truth. This false doctrine has it's roots in the teachings of Augustine and John Calvin. The doctrine of "once saved, always saved" that is taught int the majority of todays churches is not the eternal security that was taught by Jesus and the Apostles. The very foundation of the church that Jesus established is in Matt. 5,6 and 7. Those that would have us believe in "once saved, always saved" will tell us that once we accept Christ as our personal saviour, then our sins are forgiven. past, present and future. But look at what Jesus taught about forgiveness of sins if we do not forgive each other. Matt. 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Tell me brother, when do we apply this verse to ourselves? Before we got saved or after? Can we really make Heaven our home with unforgiven sin in our life? You know the answer to that. It seems pretty clear to me that God will not forgive our sins if we harbor bitterness and unforgiveness in our hearts. Consider this. People are in churches today proclaiming that they are saved and secure and yet they hold hatred in their hearts against other people because of the skin color. And I'm not just talking about "white folks" either. Are these people really saved? But whenever you bring up an example like this, the standard argument is that these people were never teally saved to begin with. I don't believe that statement. I believe that some of these people (not all) had a real conversion experience. Let's take a look at what Paul teaches about eternal security. Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Who is this verse talking to brother? Those about to saved? I don't think so. This verse is written to you and I. Let me ask you something. Can we really say that we have mortified the deeds of the body by simply saying a sinners prayer and thats all we do. If we yield to the Spirit of God and allow sin to be put to death in our life, is that really a "works" salvation? Let's look at what the Apostle Peter taught about eternal security. 2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: I could give more examples but I would like to keep this brief so that you will take time to read this post. I only have one more question for you. You accuse me of "whining". Why do most people that believe strongly in "once saved, always saved" always resort to put downs and sarcastic remarks when their belief is challenged with other scriptures? Didn't Jesus himself tell us that you would know a tree by the fruit that it bears. He tells us in Matt. 12 that the fruit He was talking about is what comes out of your mouth. If we are going to discuss the scriptures, all I ask of anybody is that we conduct our selves as mature christian brothers and that we consider one another. Peace |
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#13
08-15-2008, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
you stated 2nd Peter 1:9 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. If sin was put to death he would have said purged from his sins not his old sins. Romans 5:12,21 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Psalm 25:8 Good and upright is the LORD: therefore will he teach sinners in the way. John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Who are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:5 Now I know that the sin I am unaware of in my life, sin I do not realise through my simple manly ignorance will be uttered for me. Romans 8:26-27 26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. In other words, the sin I cannot possibly have any words for or speak, in my deepest sighs, the Spirit will look into my heart and he will make the plea to my Father In heaven for me. To say you, as a man, know ALL the sins that you have commited and ALL the hidden things of your heart is completely and utterly self righteous. I come to my LORD Jesus Christ in prayer as a sinner, I do not come to him naming individual sins. In My Saviour's name The LORD Jesus Christ. |
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#15
08-17-2008, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Greetings Brother The above statement that you made does not line up with the scriptures. Consider what the Apostle Peter said in 1 Peter 4:1,2. 1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. Now look at what the Apostle Paul says about this. Gal. 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. A question. If this were not possible, why would the Apostle Paul make such a statement? "you stated 2nd Peter 1:9 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. If sin was put to death he would have said purged from his sins not his old sins." The reason Peter said "old sins" is because that is all that this type of person has been saved from. They have not been saved from the sin nature that is inherent in all of us. That is what Jesus came to set us free from. Just being forgiven of sins is not salvation. If that were true, then they had salvation under the Old Covenant. Lev. 5:16 And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him. Gal. 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. Jesus forgave sin before He ever went to the cross. There are many examples of this in the Gospels. "To say you, as a man, know ALL the sins that you have commited and ALL the hidden things of your heart is completely and utterly self righteous. I come to my LORD Jesus Christ in prayer as a sinner, I do not come to him naming individual sins." The sins that I have (past tense) committed I do not have to know. When I asked the Lord to forgive me and was converted, the Lord heard my cry and forgave me of all those sins. However, if we have aught against our brother, Jesus commands us to go and make it right with them. We must know what the offense is if we are to make that right. As far as knowing our heart goes, it is true that the heart of man is deceitful and desperately wicked and none of us in our carnal reasoning can know it. However, God gives us a remedy for this dillema by the word of God. Consider the following scriptures. John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Think about this for a moment. What "truth" is He referring to? The truth about what every piece of furniture in the tabernacle represented? The truth about all the types and shadows in the Old Covenant? I don't think so. The truth He is referring to is the truth about who you are. Look at what Jesus said about the light that He brought to the world. John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. Now look what Paul says about the church that Jesus gave His life for. Eph. 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. If you'll notice, Paul making reference to the laver in the tabernacle. The lave was filled with water and lined with mirrors. James also makes reference to this in the 1st chapter of James. James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.(This is written to believers, by the way) 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. You will notice that James here uses the word "work" in the singular. We know from the scriptures, that we are not saved by works. But there is a work that does apply to our savation. What work is that? It is the work that you see in the mirror of the word of God. Whenever you read your Bible and you see that Jesus commands us to love one another and you realize that you have hatred in your heart towards another brother, that is your work. You might say, that we can never fully know our own heart. But consider what the Apostle Paul says in the 3rd chapter of Phillipians. Phillipians 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. I realize that this is a long answer to your response but I hope that this helps you see where I am coming from. Peace. |
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#16
08-18-2008, 01:49 PM
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Gophgetter,
lets agree that I do not believe what you believe and vice versa. Because my mind will NEVER be swayed from once saved always saved, and im sure that your mind will never cease from believing salvation can be lost. so lets take the words of the prophet Amos and leave it there. Can two walk together, except they be agreed? Amos 3:3 In the name of my LORD Jesus Christ. Last edited by peopleoftheway; 08-18-2008 at 01:49 PM. Reason: spelling error |
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#17
08-18-2008, 03:59 PM
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Wrongo!
Gophgetter:--- Your Thread title and your key verse to back up your claim are Wrong from the git-go! The term "Once Saved, Always saved" comes from the silly attempts of Arminians to bad-mouth/insult/make-fun-of the Biblically-based and backed "Doctrines of Grace."
Amazingly you used a quote from the serpent in Genesis 3 ("you shall not die") in order to call into question one of the great truths of biblical Christianity...which is that: Salvation is of The Lord! Humans don't save themselves. see Romans 5: 8-9 (matter-o-fact, read the whole Epistle to the Romans and see if you can find any "back-up" to your position!) To help the unsure readers who have read the accusations of the Thread Starter so far and the defamation and twisting of the words of Augustine and Calvin by him and another poster...I shall post a link to the 1689 2nd London Baptist Confession of Faith---and the chapter titled "Of the Perseverance of the Saints". It is rich with Theology and has scripture proofs at the end of each paragraph. In paragraph 1 there is a great line: "...Kept by the power of God"... Amen! http://www.vor.org./truth/1689/1689bc17.html |
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#18
08-18-2008, 05:17 PM
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PB, I don't mean to upset you, but in essence, you teach the same doctrine that gophgetter does, under a different name
The Perseverance of the Saints According to this doctrine (whether you want to call it Final Perseverance or something else), does not a saint have to "endure to the end to be saved?". If a saint does not endure, then it is evident that they were never saved in the first place? And does not this perseverance of the saints teach that they shall persevere not only in faith, but also in works? If you don't have the works to justify your faith, then your faith is dead? That is what perseverance of the saints teaches is it not? Because that is exactly what gophgetter is teaching as well. Gophgetter is saying those who sin after salvation have lost it. Your doctrine says they never had it. Same thing. Both are on their way to hell. Eternal Security is different. When we repent of SIN (not sins), and abhor who we are, sinners, and turn to Christ for salvation, we are written on the palm of his hand, we are given eternal life, we shall never perish, and he shall never leave us. It is very rare for a true believer to fall away from the faith, but those that do, for whatever reason, are kept secure in God's hand. It is God that perseveres for us. I do not believe in the perseverance of the saints I believe in the Preservation of the Saints and the Perseverance of Jesus Christ. |
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#19
08-18-2008, 07:33 PM
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Unanswered Questions
Quote:
Since I have been wrong from the "git-go", maybe you could help straighten me out. I have asked several questions along with scriptures to go with them. It seems that hardly anybody wants to deal with these questions. They only want to tell me how wrong I am and twist my words. Would you care to answer some of these questions? I am not going to take the time to post them again. Just read the posts above and you will find them. I only ask one thing. When you answer these questions, use God's word and not man's word. In other words, use scripture, not commentaries. Peace |
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#20
08-18-2008, 07:50 PM
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Gophgetter,
I will answer this question: You said, " Let me ask you something. Can we really say that we have mortified the deeds of the body by simply saying a sinners prayer and thats all we do. If we yield to the Spirit of God and allow sin to be put to death in our life, is that really a "works" salvation?" Romans 6 is not promoting a works based Salvation but merely this, Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. the work is Gods work in us. man has some responsibilities yes but not for his salvation. only for his life after salvation which you shall be rewarded for. 2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. don't yield to God but yield to sin you give account for it and receive a reward accordingly, yield to God and not to sin your give account for it and receive a reward accordingly. Remember yielding, reckoning and judging yourself is your duty as a Christian and this good works God has ordained you should walk in them. He has ordered you to walk or live in this manner acording to Ephesians 2:10 so your idea that Paul was teaching a works based salvation in Romans 6 is a misiterpretation of the scriptures and you are wrong. for what he is teaching is your duty as a Christian. Not a duty to be saved. Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Romans |
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