[stephanos]

Originally Posted by chette777

Towinz,

Bro, you need to get your dispensations striaght. Christ already came once and he will come again a second time. He will com ina cloud to receive the Body of Christ Only and some time after that the great tribulation starts.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Most of your scriptures are Tribulational Dispensation and even salvation is different then than now. Matt 24-25 are tribulational scriptures which apply to Israel both in the dispensation of Law in preparation for the Kingdom (which was Christ main ministry when he was here preparing Israel only for the Kingdom)before the Great Trib and then some of it after the great trib starts and goes all the way until the Lord Returns to take his throne in his kingdom He will establish at teh end of the great trib. those scriptures literally cover three distinct time periods or dispensations.

IN the Book of Revelation is says to count the number of the man, 666. ok if your are in the tribulation but if you take that as a doctrine to practice today you would be labeling everyone a anti-christ. so you just need to get some dispensational understanding. Tim Mortons book is available on line and if I had written one it would have exactly as he states except for secret rapture of the body of Christ. read it it will belss your study and help you iron out the rough spots in your theology. www.preservedwords.com/books.html

http://jesus-is-lord.com/plymouth.txt
http://jesus-is-lord.com/dispensa.htm

Peace and Love,
Stephen

[chette777]

Originally Posted by toiwnz

"MY OPINION"- is that a rebuilt jewish temple would be offence against the work of God after He sent His only Begotten Son who died and fulfilled the law and daily sacrifice. To build another temple in order to start the daily sacrifice for the covering of Sins is just wrong. Pre, mid, post trib doctrines can sometimes be confusing, frustrating, and a division maker. I think the coming of Christ is simple.

Towinz, what do you think meeting him in the clouds in Thess. means? How can he return with us if we are still on the Earth? I know some make it confusing but follow Paul's teaching in 1Thess and 2Thess and in 1Cor.15 and you can very easily see that we join him in the clouds before the antichrist shows upin the great Tribulation. but in Christs second VISIBLE appearing to the general population or his second coming he destroys the antichrist and throws him into the lake of fire witht eh false prophet and the Beast.

Well, Israel will build another temple according to Scripture, they will again do a daily sacrifice for the Bible says they will. the antichrist will put it to an end because he wants the worship for himself in the Middle of the Trib and Jews scatter because they know he is not God. their sacrifices are an abobination because they don't believe on Jesus Christ, that much is true.

then when the Lord Jesus Returns and sets up his kingdom. there will be a temple in Jerusalem and there will be oblations of the nations brought to Israel by the Gentiles. if there is sacrifice of animals the scriptures don't say so. but oblations are Gold and food things like that. but no mention of animal sacrifice in the Millenial kingdom. but there may be we do not know clearly But eh Jews are to offer sacrifices to the Lord during the Millenial Kingdom and into Eternity whether it is Animal we will have to see God revealed will inteh Kingdom to find out Scriptures are not to clear on that point. I think there will be but it will be for a different reason not for a covering for sin.

Stephenos and Easy E, I know people go over board and Hyper divide scripture and it is a danger. but there is a Rightly Dividing the word of God that the Lord by Inspiration of the Holy Spirit Tells us to in 2Timothy 2:15. that comes by study also.

the brother who asked about when salvation changes. keep this in mind all Salvations even if just from a flood as Noahs is by faith but in Noahs day he had to work that is build the Ark or die in the flood as God instructed him too. he is not part of the Body of Christ, nor is his Salvation like ours. Noah is a Gentile he will rise inthe Great White Throne and be judged by works eat of the fruit of the tree of Life and enter into God glorious temple end the end. but we are already by that time glorified in Christ forever.

Salvation by faith alone is unique to the Church Age Only. Trib is back under law, Millenial kingdom (and read it closely in Revelation is by works alone for you can not have faith in that which you can see) faith is the subsatnce of things hoped for and the evidence os things unseen. Tim Mortons book is a clear not to much divided scripture dispensational teaching that is accurate and trustworthy.

you all are impressing me with your study and comments to this forum on the secret rapture. Keep up the good work God will straighten us out when we get there.

God bless

your fellow servant

[Easy E]

http://jesus-is-lord.com/plymouth.txt
http://jesus-is-lord.com/dispensa.htm

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Stephen,
Dispensationalism means alot of things to a lot of people.

As far as I know, everyone is a little bit dispensational. Have you read Matt 10:5,6?

Mat_10:5, These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat_10:6, But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

I doubt that you believe that Scripture is for us today. This verse must be rightly divided. The next question is how much. That takes a long time to figure out but it is possible. Don't just dismiss the entire method of dispensationalism, because of some guy at Jesus-is-Lord.com writing about dispensationalism as a whole. Lots of dispensationalists are messed up. But don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. The Robber Barons were messed up, but for goodness sake, don't become a communist!

That is why God tells us in our King James to "Study" and be a "Workman".

Now, Stephen, if you have a specific question about dispensationalism, create a new thread and ask and I am sure that some people here that have put a lot more time into the issue can answer your question. That goes for you also, Toiwnz.

God Bless.

[Debau]

by chette777
then when the Lord Jesus Returns and sets up his kingdom. there will be a temple in Jerusalem and there will be oblations of the nations brought to Israel by the Gentiles. if there is sacrifice of animals the scriptures don't say so. but oblations are Gold and food things like that. but no mention of animal sacrifice in the Millenial kingdom. but there may be we do not know clearly But eh Jews are to offer sacrifices to the Lord during the Millenial Kingdom and into Eternity whether it is Animal we will have to see God revealed will inteh Kingdom to find out Scriptures are not to clear on that point. I think there will be but it will be for a different reason not for a covering for sin.

Ezekiel 45:

15 And one lamb out of the flock, out of two hundred, out of the fat pastures of Israel; for a meat offering, and for a burnt offering, and for peace offerings, to make reconciliation for them, saith the Lord GOD.

16 All the people of the land shall give this oblation for the prince in Israel.

17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

18 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the first month, in the first day of the month, thou shalt take a young bullock without blemish, and cleanse the sanctuary:

19 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering, and put it upon the posts of the house, and upon the four corners of the settle of the altar, and upon the posts of the gate of the inner court.

[Jeremy]

Here is my 2 cents on this subject.
The problem exists when preachers appease the people with the Pre-trib,Mid-Trib,Post-Trib and Partial, this only causes more confusion, 15 years ago there were no disagreement on the KJ bIble or where people stood as far as the rapture. There is only one, and that is the Pre-Tribulation Rapture

What you refer to as a 2 phase second coming is 2 stages or phases within the Process of the Second Coming.
1. The Rapture and the Revelation or what is called as the Second Coming,
having the 7 year Tribulation seperating the two.
2.We are living in the Church Age.
3.The Rapture is Signless,because it is Imminent. I thess. 4 v16-17 Acts 1 v9-11
4. The 7 year Tribulation,(A time of Jacobs trouble,Israels suffering)Christians and Believers will not go through the Tribulation,we will be Raptured, Therefore the Holy Spirit will not be on this earth except for the 144,000 Jews who minister to those in the Tribulation.
Jeremiah 30 v7: Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Daniel 12 v1: And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

5.End of 7 year Tribulation,we will return with Christ for the Millennium
Jude verse 14: And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Rev. 20v4:And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

6. The Literal,Visible and Bodily first coming was when Jesus was born,the second coming is at the end of tribulation,he will return just as he did the first time, Literal,Visible and Bodily,we will be with him. There is your 2 phases.

Acts 1v9-11: And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Matthew Chapters 24-25 is refered to as the Olivet Discourse, it is the 3 questions the disciples asked Jesus.
Matthew 24v 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The signs are refering to the second coming. They are happening at higher Intensity and greater Frequency. Earthquakes,Rumors of war etc..

How close are we when these signs are being fulfilled each and everyday,that points to the Second Coming, and we are still here!

[chette777]

thanks Debau,

there will be sacrifices in the Millenial kingdom. Good work. I knew there was but couldn't put my mind on tbe Bible addresses. but lets get back to the SECRET RAPTURE that is being taught by people today. it just wont be a secret once the body of Christ leaves the planet that much is sure. so I can't understand why they would continue to think so.

[Debau]

it just wont be a secret once the body of Christ leaves the planet that much is sure. so I can't understand why they would continue to think so.

I don't know if "secret" is the correct word here. It will be the culmination of the "mystey" of the church (Ephesians 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.), with the mysterious catching up (I Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.) of the saints to meet the Lord in the clouds.
(1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed).

How many will be caught up is a mystery also. Will these people be missed? I doubt it. This will be a time marked by strong delusion. There will also be the absence of the Holy Spirit.(2 Thes 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.) This will be a time of great darkness.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Those who've rejected the gospel in the age of grace have sealed their eternal fate.

[chette777]

towinz

i answered it already in a previous post. but simply put.

all slavations in every dispensation have an eliment of faith involved. for noah he was saved from a flood by faith we are told. but he also had to work by building an ark. if he had not worked he would of died in the flood because his faith needed to be accompanied by works.

today you are saved by faith alone without works Eph 2:8,9. no works added or needed for Christ did all the work necessary to save you.

so in that respect salvations are different. some need works accompanied in different dispensations, but only in the church age are you saved by faith alone, only in the church age ae you filled with the presence of God himself (not to keep the laws as the Jews will be in the Millenial Kningdom Dispensation).

if you don't study dispensationally you will blend all salvations into one type. all doctrines for everyone in everyage, and make the body of Christ subjects in a kingdom rather than the Bride alongside the Bridegroom who rules teh Kingdom.

I don't come on line as often as you so my responses are slow and few.

Originally Posted by pbiwolski

I agree that there is nothing secret about millions of graves opening and others dissappearing, etc.

I also agree that this occurrence is not a secret (anymore, that is) as the scripture teaches that it will take place.

Jeremy,

Be careful as to what you use as your "proof text" for the rapture. Your quoting of Matt. 24 won't help prove this "catching away," for the rapture is not found anywhere in the chapter.

Matthew 24: 40-44 - The catching away of the Church (these verses are found hidden between verses 39 and 45).

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by chette777

towinz

i answered it already in a previous post. but simply put.

all slavations in every dispensation have an eliment of faith involved. for noah he was saved from a flood by faith we are told. but he also had to work by building an ark. if he had not worked he would of died in the flood because his faith needed to be accompanied by works.

today you are saved by faith alone without works Eph 2:8,9. no works added or needed for Christ did all the work necessary to save you.

so in that respect salvations are different. some need works accompanied in different dispensations, but only in the church age are you saved by faith alone, only in the church age ae you filled with the presence of God himself (not to keep the laws as the Jews will be in the Millenial Kningdom Dispensation).

if you don't study dispensationally you will blend all salvations into one type. all doctrines for everyone in everyage, and make the body of Christ subjects in a kingdom rather than the Bride alongside the Bridegroom who rules teh Kingdom.

I don't come on line as often as you so my responses are slow and few.

Chette,

Please, could you leave out the dispensational man made doctrines? I think I've heard you say say 'dispensation...' more times that I want to here. If you could, it would be nice to just simply hear you quote verses from the KJB to respond to what people say on these forums. If you cannot have a reasonable biblical discussion without condescending to dispensationalism then perhaps it's time to re-evaluate your 'theology'. We're all KJB lovers here, so I can promise you that if you use this to share your thoughts with us then you'll likely not encounter to much resistance.

Concerning faith, I would like to add that not everyone on these forums is Calvanist. Some of us have actually looked into the man behind the theories and found him and his theories wanting. Concerning works, please show me faith without works, and I'll show you mine with works. Remember that faith without works is dead (James 2:20). Then look at verse 21 and 22, how James uses Abraham as an example of saving faith that is made perfect with works. Then in a verse that if spoken in most Calvanist congregations would get you labelled a heretic, he goes on to say: "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." James 2:24.

Chette, don't think I'm seeking strife and debate with you my brother, but rather to help you to understand that it is unwise to go to the Scriptures with anything other than a completely open mind, seeking Truth and Spirit through the Holy Ghost. Much can be gained when one puts aside all the preconcieved notions one has about what the Bible says, and is open to hear what God wants to reveal. It is my prayer that all those that profess Jesus Christ go to the Word of God in this manner.

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen