[George]

Originally Posted by Jeff

George, what I get out of your words is that it's alright to criticize those who don't agree with you, such as Jerry and Brother Tim. However it is not alright to criticize those that you are a big fan of, such as Dr. Ruckman.

Is a man's character determined soley on what their views are and not how they conduct themselves?

Do you not see a double standard here?

Did you read my words? "what I get out of your words". It's not "what you "get out of my words" - It's - what did I say? I never once said (or intimated) "that it's alright to criticize those who don't agree with you" No, not once! Please don't put words in my mouth.

I am saying let's stop criticizing brother Ruckman period! Have you seen me criticize brother Cloud or any other famous "Christian personality"? Why keep "beating up" on brother Ruckman if you have never met the man; or heard him preach or teach; or listened to his preaching & teaching tapes; or only read a couple of books by him? Hmmm?

There are other "fish to fry" out there. "Is a man's character determined soley on what their views are and not how they conduct themselves?" Good question! And i will answer it thusly: Is a man's character determined soley on what he says (or is reported to have said), or on his fruit? Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. We are not to judge by words, but by fruit - Is their anyone here that knows brother Ruckman well enough to be a "fruit inspector", if not then, let's drop the sniping of him - that's all.
Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Check my posts out - you haven't seen me laud brother Ruckman; or "recommend him or his books or his tapes to anyone. I haven't "linked" to his site in all of my posts. I don't recommend any "Commentators" or "Commentaries" when it comes to Bible study.

I would be holding a double standard if I justified any wrongdoing that brother Ruckman does or has done. I never have and I never will!

Why do people judge other people when they know little or nothing about them?
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
Why judge at all, if you don't have to?

[George]

Brother Jerry,

I said "I have a strong suspicion" (If I had judged you or your motives I would have said: "Jerry has a "bone of contention", because he is a big "fan" of brother Cloud.") A "strong suspicion" is not "judging", but it is interesting that my statement seems to have hit a "sore spot" with you. My question for you is quite simple: Why do you have to continually "dump" on brother Ruckman at every opportunity?

You will notice that I have about 44 posts on this Forum and I haven't once dumped on brother Cloud - not once! Why dump on brother Ruckman over and over again? We all know how you "feel" about him - get over it, let's move on.

I'll tell you what: I'll promise not to "dump" on brother Cloud if you will promise not to "dump" on brother Ruckman - OK?

Another point: Look through all of my posts - I have never recommended Peter Ruckman's books, articles, materials, etc. - no, not once! I have never "linked" to his web page - no, not once!

I'm very careful who I recommend, and when I do recommend, it more likely has to do with recommending someone for a specific purpose - not Bible study. Examples: {Warnings on leaven in the churches & Psychiatry & Psychology; etc. (Dave Hunt - Berean Call) - even though I don't always agree with him; Psychiatry & Psychology - (Martin & Deidre Bobgan) - even though I don't always agree with them; and others on say: Evolution (Harry Rimmer, Henry Morris, etc.); ECM & "Seeker" churches (Roger Oakland); etc.; etc.}

NOTICE: I don't recommend "commentators" (men)or "commentaries" (or their books) when it comes to Bible study. If you want use them - fine. I used them from 1968-1988. It's not that I know everything, it's just that I have gotten to the point where when I have a "problem" with a "passage", I notice that all of the "Commentators" do too.

If someone uses a "commentator" or a "commentary" I always caution them to be "careful" of leaven and personal opinion. I don't condemn people if they choose to use these men or their books - "Christian Liberty you know.

One other thing and I'll finish with my post: You have a tendency to "generalize" in making your accusations - "there are various serious problems with him and his material that I have found." (But you don't name any.) I could make that same accusation against anyone!; "However, sin is sin - if someone has a foul mouth - or foul typewriting fingers - then it is wrong" ( Be specific.); and again - "Also, wacky or heretical doctrine is wrong regardless of who supports it." (I agree but - what "wacky" or "heretical" doctrines? it's easy to throw out "general" accusations (anyone can do that!) - it's not so easy if you are "specific". If you have only read 2 of his books and he has written about 100 - can't you be more specific?)

I find it strange that there are a few people on this Forum that just can't leave well enough alone. I will never defend brother Ruckman for any wrong doing or any "foul" language that he may use, however, I know the man and he isn't what you make him out to be (and you don't know him).

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by George

Did you read my words? "what I get out of your words". It's not "what you "get out of my words" - It's - what did I say? I never once said (or intimated) "that it's alright to criticize those who don't agree with you" No, not once! Please don't put words in my mouth.

Yes I read your words, and your words betray you. That was my point. Much speaking doesn't change things. On your say so we're not supposed to give our views on Dr. Ruckman if they're not positive.

Using your arguments I can't form a view on Jeremiah Wright, or say anything against him. So much for free and open discussions if you have your say.

[Renee]

[QUOTE=Jeff;2829]Yes I read your words, and your words betray you. That was my point. Much speaking doesn't change things. On your say so we're not supposed to give our views on Dr. Ruckman if they're not positive.

Jeff explain. How doeas George's words betray him? I do not understand.

[ziggy2sound4u]

George,
I call upon you to read the Word of God (AV1611).
There are SPECIFIC commands by God on Christian conduct and appearances.

“Be not deceived; evil communications corrupt good manners.” (I Cor. 15:33)

“Abstain from all appearance of evil.” (I Thess. 5:22)

"If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his own tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain." (James 1:26)

When Dr. Ruckman uses such crude and vulgar language against his enemies (some of whom are brothers and sisters), he is going against the Word of God.

I humbly and prayerfully submit this.

These people that "slander" Dr. Ruckman are just as bad as they say he is. No one who believes that the King James Bible, any edition, is the scripture given by inspiration of God, will not make Dr. Ruckman an issue, because Dr. Ruckman is not the key to believing that God perfectly preserved His words. Those that cannot seperate Ruckman from this issue have an incurable disease called "Ruckmanitis", and instead of studying and approaching the Bible with a humble mind, and a believing heart, study it with their mind already made up. Back in 2000 when I was stationed in San Antonio, I got a chance to personally meet Dr. Ruckman at a church there. He was quite gentlemenly, and short. About a month previous to that, my pastor at the time who also didn't like Dr. Ruckman, blasted him from the pulpit at the spur of the moment. He was doing a mini-series on Bible versions. He made the comment " I don't believe the King James flew down from heaven, and if you 'follow Peter Ruckman', this is what he believes, and he twists the scriptures to make them fit what he believes". No "twisted scriptures" given. The pastor was quite indignant and red above the collar when he blasted that statement over the pulpit. I'd say about 90% of the congregation at the time, didn't even know who Ruckman was. Now how fair do you think that is? Why even mention Ruckman's name when teaching a series on Bible versions in the first place, and put a negative thought in peoples head towards someone who they never met or heard of? After the service, I asked what was up with the Ruckman thing, and he said "well, he was married 3 times, and slanders good men, and -and, that's just not right". So, I wrote Dr. Ruckman about these charges, he wrote back and said in short, "You're pastor is a liar, I never have, or will, recommend divorce to anyone, even when there is scriptural grounds, as far as what people have heard about my personal life, give them this book, if they think that was something, wait til they get a load of this, some people just shoot off their mouths and think about it later". He sent me a copy of his autobiography The Full Cup, a 12.00 book free of charge. When the Holy Spirit showed me that the KJB is the perfect, infallible words of God, I never heard of Dr. Ruckman, like nearly 95% percent of every congregation he's preached at. I had a book at the time that used him in the bibliography, but I just glanced over it like the other names listed. "Like minded in beliefs"? Over and over you will read Dr. Ruckman admonishing to not believe a word he's saying until you look up all of the references and cross reference for yourself. Expecting you to be "like-minded" with him is the last thing he expects anyone to do. Who cares what Jeff or anyone like-minded thinks about Dr. Ruckman, go on and have your opinion, its a free country. I can care less if you want to label a man or woman that stands on the Book, a "Ruckmanite". Anyone who has taken the abuse he has over the years and still hasn't faltered, and has a great burden for souls, so many believers faith in the KJB 1611 being restored, and personally takes time out for people, deserves big "ups" as far as I'm concerned. You don't have to agree with him on everything or anything, and he's certainly not above criticism. Why don't you write him concerning his "wacky" and "heretical" doctrines? What are you offering in replace of them?

[ziggy2sound4u]

"These people that "slander" Dr. Ruckman are just as bad as they say he is."
Who sayeth that anyone slanders Dr. Ruckman.
His use of foul and abusive language at both heretics and fellow believers is well known.
That is fact, not slander.

[Gord]

I have followed this and other posts on Dr. Ruckman, and even read his monthly publication, what puzzles me most of all is where does his humour or anything in this post talking about our opinions of him, glorify God, or lift up our Lord and saviour?????????
What really comes to my mind first is a quote from the Lord, "Mt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!".
Sorry, but as a new Christian this is what I take away from what I read hear.

[ziggy2sound4u]

Brother Gord,

"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, AND SEARCHED THE SCRIPTURES DAILY, WHETHER THOSE THINGS WERE SO".(Acts 17:11)

Search your Bible(KJV).

If Dr. Ruckman is breaking God's commandments, it is up to fellow believers to warn of such, saving others from a corrupting influence (“Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?" I Cor. 5:6)

Obeying God's Word is glorifying God!

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15)

[Jeff]

[QUOTE=Renee;2831]

Originally Posted by Jeff

Yes I read your words, and your words betray you. That was my point. Much speaking doesn't change things. On your say so we're not supposed to give our views on Dr. Ruckman if they're not positive.

Jeff explain. How doeas George's words betray him? I do not understand.

I'll ask you the same question George asked me, as impertinent as it may be; did you read his words? He is clearly quick to jump on those who dare to even question Dr. Ruckman. George feels free to criticize those who disagree with him, but no one else should have the same right. Why do you think he didn't attack Pbiwolski for this quote that sarted this new round:

Gentlemen, have you overlooked that Dr. Ruckman ends all of his "abusive" remarks with the "and I say that with charity, of course!?!"

Jerry's response to this was justified, yet Jerry is the one accused of bringing this subject back up.