I was looking at the reference in Amos 6 and did notice "Am 6:5 That chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of musick, like David".

I also looked at 2 Chronicles 7:6 "And the priests waited on their offices: the Levites also with instruments of musick of the LORD, which David the king had made to praise the LORD, because his mercy endureth for ever, when David praised by their ministry; and the priests sounded trumpets before them, and all Israel stood."

I don't see that David did anything wrong. So, at first glance, they (in Amos 6) were guilty of doing as David did only for evil.

Maybe I missed it. Am I missing the point (honest question)?

[scott]

Brother, the thread began with questions about CCM and its use in Worship today. I posted those scriptures because I remembered studying Amos a few months ago, and reading Adam Clarkes commentary concerning verse 5. Many times in my life, without ever asking anyone, I wondered why a Church [such as some CofC's, primitive baptists, etc.] would not allow even a piano in the Church since instruments are mentioned so often in the Bible, and when I ran across that verse and commentary, I put 2 and 2 together and I assume how Adam Clarke felt [back in 1826] was how many felt about musical instruments back then and some still today...What I really thought was interesting was how he elaborated on the word chant:

The word הפרטים happoretim, which we render chant, and the margin quaver, signifies to dance, to skip, etc. In the sight of such a text, fiddlers, drummers, waltzers, etc., may well tremble, who perform to excite detestable passions.

and the reason it is interesting to me is that I can't imagine that he had the same kind of services back then that I have been to and see on tv today, yet it sounds eerily familiar; that is the reason I posted those scriptures and commentary. Yes music is mentioned in the Bible, we also know that in the Bible, music was used for the wrong purposes even by God's people, as they dedicated the golden calf: Ex 32:17 And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp.
Ex 32:18 And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise of them that sing do I hear.; [I don't know what the sound of war type of music sounded like back then, but that also sounds eerily familiar]; so we know that music can be used to glorify God and it can be used to glorify man or the flesh, even satan; Bringing this back to the question of CCM and its use in Worship, I'll make one last comment and then ask a question: I have heard people [such as my cousin and her husband I mentioned in an earlier post] say they will not attend a Church unless it has CCM music in it [not mentioning anything about the Bible or the preaching or even the people], and my question is, is that not carnal?? There is no guideline that I know of for musical instruments in worship, but there certainly is for the Word [OT and new]; repeating myself, brother, I am afraid satan is using this music to dull the minds and senses and making people become numb to the Word of God!! I'm proud to know that you are KJV because my experience with those churches has been anything but....God bless

One concern with CCM is that the whole thing seems to be geared toward producing a SHOW rather than worship, an effort to worship God on terms that are firstly pleasing to the performers and the "fans", with emphasis on hairstlyes, clothing, music sounds and personal image.

The lyrics used in CCM seem to me to be repetitive and doctrinally shallow when compared to Hymns that were written in years past;

" My faith has found a resting place, Not in device nor creed;
I trust the Ever living One, His wounds for me shall plead.
I need no other argument, I need no other plea,
It is enough that Jesus died, and that he died for me"

or;

"And can it be that I should gain,an interest in the Saviours blood?
Died he for me, who caused his pain? For me,who Him to death pursued?
Amazing love! how can it be That Thou my God should'st die for me?
Amazing love! how can it be That Thou my God should'st die for me?"

The focus of these hyms is on God, as opposed to CCM where the Bass players timing with the drummer is a topic of importance, or the guitarists' lead breaks are so similar to Jon Bon Jovi that it is "awsome".
And lyrics? who can hear them anyway? Sing the name of Jesus a few times, repeat the catchy chorus over and over and over AND over and the mosh pit ( and God) will be satisfied.

Not all offerings are acceptable to God, Cain would tell you that much.

Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.


fUNDY

[scott]

Fundy, Amen....I'm certainly not standing in judgment of anyone, but I do know the Bible says:

1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jo 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Bringing up the topic of fashion within CCM is another matter. I am 44 years old, and when I was in school, you never saw a boy, or any man for that matter, wearing an earring. I am from a small school, nonetheless I never saw such a thing at school or anywhere else back then. I went off to college, and still never saw it...but at college I was introduced to something we never had back home--cable tv, and my roommates would turn on the mtv--and if I thought the people on there looked freaky back then, I can only imagine what it is now [I really don't know how freaky they may or may not be now], anyhow that was the first time I saw men wearing earrings....But now its "acceptable" and it is almost the norm for most CCM groups, but where did it come from?? I know there were earrings mentioned in the OT, but when they were mentioned they were pulling them out [a revival!!] for an offering [or worse, to make a golden calf]....I've heard it said, if we're going to win the world we have to sing the world's music, we have to dress like the world....where is that at in the Bible?? The scriptures above destroy that logic....The point is, all the fashion, the music, where did it come from??--if mtv and "modern culture" are the answer, how can we accept something that is not only worldly [the Bible says as above, love not the world....], but satanic in many forms....I agree with you, the hymns are Bible based, Holy Spirit inspired, but, much like the Word itself, we can allow the familiarity with the old hymns cause our hearts to become calloused to them until we think we need something new. Of course, this is just my opinion, but I always hearken back to:

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

God bless

Hi Scott,

When I was at school, it was accepted that the wearing of an earring by a male was a sign of a sodomite. No one at school wore one in those days, but the TV shows of the time ALWAYS had the queer character wearing an earing and acting in an effeminate manner.

The only ones in scociety thay wore an earring were the openly queer Rock and Roll performers or other celebrities that gradually came out of the closet in the late '70's and early 80's. Long hair and effeminate clothing had long been the hallmark of such people up to then.

These days, I even know of a "Baptist" pastor that wears an earring and long hair, who incidentally hates the KJV.

The sad fact is that all of these trappings of sodomites are now part and parcel of the CCM movement. I am not saying any of these people are sodomotes...far from it, but their lack of discernment in this area has to be acknowledged.

The CCM style is modelled after an industry that is populated and run by deviates, drug users, effeminates and sodomites.

Below is a paste of Genesis 35:4 and a commentary of the verse taken from the E Sword program. What does God have to say about the wearing of earrings?

Gen 35:4 And they gave unto Jacob all the strange gods which were in their hand, and all their earrings which were in their ears; and Jacob hid them under the oak which was by Shechem.

Commentary;
and all their earrings which were in their ears; not the earrings that women wore in common, such as Abraham's servant gave to Rebekah, and which Jacob's wives might wear, for such were not unlawful; but either which were worn in the ears of the strange gods or idols; for such used, it seems, according to some writers, to be decorated and ornamented after that manner; or rather in the ears of the idolaters themselves, worn by them in a superstitious way, having the images of these idols on them: so the Targum of Jonathan,"and the earrings which were in the ears of the inhabitants of the city of Shechem, in which were formed the likeness of their idols:"

How can the wearing of earrings by members of the CCM movement, or indeed, any other Christian be acceptable in the light of even this one verse of scripture??


Fundy

I'm pretty much considered "a man with puritanical tendencies" by my peers. I don't wear jewelry. I don't wear make-up. I don't go to public swimming pools (or any for that fact - I don't believe in "mixed-bathing). I don't enjoy many if any sports (personal taste on this one), and I'm not a "sipping-saint", I believe people should dress modestly (if you ain't fishin', don't bait the hook" type thing, keeping your privates private!), and my musical tastes are on a song-by-song merit (again, my personal tastes on this one). I don't support the CCM industry, but I like some CCM music (not all). The church I attend is strong on the Word (both the Pastor and Assistant Pastor are KJV preachers). They use contemporary music, hymns, ethnic style and some jazz. Most of it I like. But, they are strong on the Word and that is their main focus. The music is a tool to worship and praise God.

Having said all that, I want to point out that some people get saved out of very wicked and vile life-styles. We need to make sure we don't "blow them out of the water" with some of our doctrines. We don't want to chase them off. Our goal is to draw them and help them grow.

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by Revangelist

Having said all that, I want to point out that some people get saved out of very wicked and vile life-styles. We need to make sure we don't "blow them out of the water" with some of our doctrines. We don't want to chase them off. Our goal is to draw them and help them grow.

This is another example of where speaking the truth in love comes in. We absolutely have to be loving and not condemning to these young Christians. I guess you might say, in a sense, meet them where they're at. Don't feed them meat if they're not ready for it. At the same time we can't risk compromising with the world in any way. We want to be yielded to the Holy Spirit and let Him draw them in and help them grow through us. Don't let them grow for awhile by trying to appeal to their emotions and then fall away thinking that what the church offers isn't that much different from what they had.

I've often wondered what is the attraction with jewelry and such? I wear a watch (a cheap one), other than that I have no interest in hanging things all over my body, and definitely not nailing them to my body (piercings, mutilation). I can't even think of a time I thought jewelry made a woman more attractive. Esther was the most attractive even though she chose not to be adorned with anything but what was required of her (not that I actually saw her ).

[scott]

Revangelist, you said it right, the Word is what is important--and the Word is what will cause a person to come under conviction and be born again [faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God], and when a person is born again, the Bible says that all things become new, and we walk in newness of life....if the music we're playing in Church sounds like the music of my "old life", I would be afraid it might become a stumbling block to me.....As far as doctrine overwhelming new Christians, I am a minister, but I would never "preach at someone", it isn't my job:

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

The margin gives convince for reprove--The Holy Spirit's job is to convict people of their sins, and He does a wonderful job of it. New converts are just that--new--the Bible says

2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

We should all continue to grow, and we need to be in a church which promotes growth [full of Christ's love] But I have to say I would not be comfortable going to a Church where people looked and acted just like the idolatrous world, listened to music inspired by the idolatrous world, and were not convicted by it....if the Word [KJV] is being preached, there will be [should be] conviction....

I read through this entire thread again this morning and realize I have already repeated in my earlier posts what many others have already eloquently said--a lot of good thoughts from good people whether we all agree or not. But I'll end with one more thought--I've had to read a lot of books before being ordained and of course, every minister to be has either heard of or had to read "The purpose driven church"--I didn't make it very far in the book, because he stated in the very beginning of his church in Saddleback, CA he got aggravated at all the infighting in his "church" about music and decided to pass out 3x5 index cards with the question--what kind of music do you listen to?? and 95 percent said they listened to adult contemporary, [does anyone see the humor in that besides me?] [sounds like a good place for a revival][I assume they have no Christian stations in CA]and based on that he decided to become an "unapologetic contemporary church" [again I refer you to Matthew 7:21-23], and as far as how important he thinks the Word is, I need only one quote: "When Gods Word is taught in an uninteresting way, people just don't think the pastor is boring, but that God is boring" to which I reply--God's Word is NEVER uninteresting--[can you guess where he was headed with that--away from the KJV] needless to say, music was most prominant in his church design. I close [finally] with these questions: do we really need new music to bring people to Christ?? Will the dawn of CCM truly help the Kingdom of Heaven??

Remember the Word:

Jer 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

[sorry this was so long, but I'm done]

God bless

Scott,

I was called to preach in 1992 (or at leeast I didn't realize it until then). Before that, since 1977, I would go to Rescue Missions and I mostly did music. Some of the times I had a Christian drama team with me who did "illustrated" sermons. There were many times, in particular in the early 1990's, when what i did was music and an altar call, we had as many as 50 come to the altar to receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. The music I did was not only original (composed by me), but, as one person said, "very aggresive with the Gospel Message.

Just FYI.

[scott]

Hello, Pastor Mikie, Good to hear your testimony.....We all know this verse, fill in the blanks:"faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the _______ ___ _____"--you know how that verse ends, and that isn't my opinion, that is the Word of the Living God!! If people are truly drawn to Christ in your ministry, it isn't because of the music, it is because of the Word. I once heard RW Shambach tell one of his many stories [yes I, a Baptist, have heard RW many times in my lifetime and I love his stories--when he gets too crazy, I turn him off], anyhow he tells of when he first began preaching on a street corner in Philadelphia, he said he had a young boy [didn't mention if he was saved or not] who played music for him [I believe it was a guitar, but my memory fails me, it may have been an accordion, shucks it might have been a gazoo] anyhow he said he would draw a crowd and when he drew the crowd, he said he'd grab him by the belt loops and pull him backwards out of the way and RW would start preaching....the music drew attention, but it was the Word that was prominent--now I know this may seem to contradict my argument about music, but we are talking about a street corner, not the House of Worship!! Getting back to your testimony, If God has gifted you [and only you know this] with an ability to draw people to Christ, then use it!! You don't need anybody's opinion about anything. Just like when God called you to preach [I remember my calling April 21, 1995] it really doesn't matter what other people think, you [and I] have a calling from the Lord. And we are different, and people are different, there are some I may reach that you may not be able to and vice versa; But, according to the Word itself, faith doesn't come by music. It comes by hearing the Word of God-- it is the Word that convicts and works to real salvation. David could play music that could soothe Sauls soul, but he [Saul] sure didn't get right with Lord through the music--If your ministry is winning souls and making disciples for Christ, then you keep on keeping on.....God bless