[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Winman

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Personally, I think verse 3 is understood in the context of verses 1 & 2.

1 John 1:1-2 That which was from the beginning [the Lord Jesus Christ], which we have heard [the Lord Jesus Christ], which we have seen with our eyes [the Lord Jesus Christ], which we have looked upon [the Lord Jesus Christ], and our hands have handled [the Lord Jesus Christ], of the Word of life [the Lord Jesus Christ]; (For the life was manifested [the life of the Lord Jesus Christ], and we have seen it [the life of Lord Jesus Christ], and bear witness [of the life of the Lord Jesus Christ], and shew unto you that eternal life [through the Lord Jesus Christ], which was with the Father [the Lord Jesus Christ], and was manifested unto us [the Lord Jesus Christ]; )

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen [the Lord Jesus Christ] and heard [the Lord Jesus Christ] declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

It seems to me that the Apostle John (and the "we," in verses 1-3, probably the other Apostles) had fellowship with the Father and His Son by believing the witness which was declared. Done deal. Finished. In fellowship right now (at his writing) with the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ based solely on believing what they saw with their own eyes, heard with their own ears, handled with their own hands, and declared with their own mouth.

Now, he is declaring the Lord Jesus Christ to all who will read his epistle and listen and heed the message. If they believe their witness, two things will happen.

1. They will enter into fellowship with all other believers.
   
2. They will truly have fellowship with the Father and His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

A person who believes the Gospel, how that Jesus died for our sins according to the scriptures, must confess he is a sinner who has committed sins if he wants to be forgiven of those sins and cleansed from all unrighteousness.

Those who enter into fellowship with the Father and the Son by believing and receiving the witness and declaration are in the light and the blood of Jesus cleanseth them from ALL sin. And those who reject the witness are not in fellowship with other believers or in fellowship with the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, they are in darkness, and the blood of Jesus Christ does not cleanseth them from all sin.

My threads like yours are explanatory and I think at this point, Brother Winman, we are repeating things we have already said and we all agree that it is vital and a mark of true discipleship for us to hate sin, turn from it, lay it aside, and look to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith. No one, in my opinion, has displayed a nonchalant, flagrant attitude toward sin.

Here is another twist:

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Richard.Strickland

And that, Knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Romans 13:11,12

"But grow in gace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be glory for ever. Amen" II Peter 3:18

Richard.Strickland

And that, Knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Romans 13:11,12

We should all awake out of sleep, cast off the works of darkness, and put on the armor of light. I think this speaks to our operational and experiential aspect of the Christian life, not our positional reality.

I like the next two verses also:

Romans 13:13-14 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

I love 2 Peter 3:18 and believe we should all purpose to do just that.

Thanks for sharing those verses, brother.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by chette777

So everyone has some feelings about this issue and that is good.

let us take it another step but first let's clarify: 1) all our sins ARE forgiven in Christ including the future ones, 2) our fellowship and relationship is secured in Christ by virtue of his finished work of the cross and his resurrection. 3) Our standing before God is secured in Christ but our daily status may change because of sin. I think on this we can all agree.

Right on brother Chette.

Originally Posted by Forrest

My threads like yours are explanatory and I think at this point, Brother Winman, we are repeating things we have already said and we all agree that it is vital and a mark of true discipleship for us to hate sin, turn from it, lay it aside, and look to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.

Yes, on this we all agree brother Forrest...

Originally Posted by Forrest

Here is another twist:

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Yes, that is a powerful ststement, and many young Christians have struggled with this but there is no reason for it if we compare scripture with scripture.

Clearly it has no bearing on our daily lives and our battle against the flesh, for like Paul we are carnal and sold under sin. (Rom. 7:14) It CANNOT mean Christians never fall in sin, for 1 John 2:1 is as clear as a bell. so what does it mean?

I believe this is referring to the POSITIONAL STANDING we have with Christ as his adopted children.

When we are born again and redeemed by His precious blood, God imparts and INCORRUPTIBLE SEED IN US, that cannot sin or waver. This is important doctrine, and can be found in 1 Peter chapter 1 below, paying particular attention to verse 23 where our remarkable King James Bible nails it in plain english...

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

25But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by chette777

So everyone has some feelings about this issue and that is good.

ok, now Paul say grieve not and quench not the Holy Ghost. Forrest is correct there is no admonishment to unquench or ungrieve. But if Paul said these things it is obvious that some have grieved and some have quenched the Holy Ghost.

So if anyone grieves or quenches the Holy Ghost what does that actually mean exactly? How does our quenching or grieving affect on our current status before God? And If we admit that we have done so how does that admission affect on our current status before God.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

1 Thessalonians 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

It’s relevant, Brother Chette, that surrounding each of these admonitions to not “grieve” or “quench” the Holy Spirit we find many things we should be doing. (Confessing them as sin in order to be forgiven of sins and to be cleansed from all unrighteousness is not one of them.)

When we disobey the things we should be doing and do not repent when the Holy Spirit reproves us through the word of God—that is when we “grieve” and “quench” the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 4:22-32

1. put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
   
2. be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
   
3. put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
   
4. putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
   
5. Be ye angry, and sin not:
   
6. let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
   
7. Neither give place to the devil.
   
8. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
   
9. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
   
10. grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
    
11. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
    
12. be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

1 Thessalonians 5:11-26

1. Wherefore comfort yourselves together,
   
2. edify one another, even as also ye do.
   
3. know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake.
   
4. be at peace among yourselves.
   
5. warn them that are unruly,
   
6. comfort the feebleminded,
   
7. support the weak,
   
8. be patient toward all men.
   
9. See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
   
10. Rejoice evermore.
    
11. Pray without ceasing.
    
12. In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
    
13. Quench not the Spirit.
    
14. Despise not prophesyings.
    
15. Prove all things;
    
16. hold fast that which is good.
    
17. Brethren, pray for us.
    
18. Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss. [That’s a tough one. ]

So there are many Biblical truths, exhortations, admonitions, and teachings we should all obey as Christians. I don’t follow all of them. Personally, I thank God for the precious blood of Jesus that continually cleanseth me from ALL sin. Otherwise I have no hope. It’s real because I am in Christ. Christ alone—yesterday, today, and forever.

The Holy Spirit is faithful to bring conviction and reproof through the written word of God when we are notdoing those things listed above. If we ignore the promptings and reproofs of the Spirit we quench and grieve Him.

I am going to be transparent with you, Brother Chette. Throughout my Christian life of 30 years, I’ve committed some horrible sins. I have been so stupid, so weak, so fleshly, so proud, so ignorant, and so foolish throughout my Christian life that one would have questioned whether or not I was truly saved.

As you know, God has used the disabling disease, Multiple Sclerosis, to bring me to the end of self. I realize some of the brethren will say I have MS because I didn't "confess" my sins. I did prior to having MS. If it was not for the Lord Jesus Christ, we would all be laid up or dead.

Over the past 8 years something extraordinary and freeing has happened in my life. Jesus Christ has become the passion of my life. He is so intimately personal that I hear His voice all the time. Not audibly of course, it's much clearer than that. He is more real to me than my wife. I mean that. He is on my heart and mind all the time. There is no uppity spiritual arrogance here. I am not claiming spiritual superiority. I boast in the Lord.

During the last several years, God, through His word, has opened my understanding to what I really have and who I really am in Christ. It is not me anymore and therefore not limited. It is abundant grace to help in time of need. I am really complete in Him. I lack nothing in Christ. I’ve been blessed by the Father with all spiritual blessing in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus. I am righteous, holy, unblameable, and unreproveable in His sight. It's not just head knowledge anymore but it's real, intimate, genuine knowledge of Jesus Christ.

What can we do in order to avoid grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit? Simply this—love, know, follow, adore, worship, and praise our Lord Jesus Christ. He will direct us.

Matthew 17:8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

[Fredoheaven]

Originally Posted by Forrest

Personally, I think verse 3 is understood in the context of verses 1 & 2.

1 John 1:1-2 That which was from the beginning [the Lord Jesus Christ], which we have heard [the Lord Jesus Christ], which we have seen with our eyes [the Lord Jesus Christ], which we have looked upon [the Lord Jesus Christ], and our hands have handled [the Lord Jesus Christ], of the Word of life [the Lord Jesus Christ]; (For the life was manifested [the life of the Lord Jesus Christ], and we have seen it [the life of Lord Jesus Christ], and bear witness [of the life of the Lord Jesus Christ], and shew unto you that eternal life [through the Lord Jesus Christ], which was with the Father [the Lord Jesus Christ], and was manifested unto us [the Lord Jesus Christ]; )

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen [the Lord Jesus Christ] and heard [the Lord Jesus Christ] declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

It seems to me that the Apostle John (and the "we," in verses 1-3, probably the other Apostles) had fellowship with the Father and His Son by believing the witness which was declared. Done deal. Finished. In fellowship right now (at his writing) with the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ based solely on believing what they saw with their own eyes, heard with their own ears, handled with their own hands, and declared with their own mouth.

Now, he is declaring the Lord Jesus Christ to all who will read his epistle and listen and heed the message. If they believe their witness, two things will happen.

1. They will enter into fellowship with all other believers.
   
2. They will truly have fellowship with the Father and His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Personally too, there are two (2) things happened when someone gave heed the message of the John:

1. Eternal life. Verse 2 is a clear indication of eternal life which life is in his Son which was also with his Father. This life has been broken down since sin entered the world or that relationship we have before God had separated us because of sin. But because of believing Christ saving message of salvation, we are brought back into a new relationship and this realationship is the basis of real fellowship which would bring us to
2. Fellowship. Having that kind of realtionship, we have the real fellowship which is of the Son and of his Father.

John wrote specifically so that our joy may be full. Eternal life, we have peace. Fellowhsip, we have joy in its fullest.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
1 John 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

Originally Posted by Forrest

As you know, God has used the disabling disease, Multiple Sclerosis, to bring me to the end of self. I realize some of the brethren will say I have MS because I didn't "confess" my sins. I did prior to having MS.

Forrest, your comment above jumped out at me. I've been wondering why you have a problem with the Biblical concept of believers confessing sin to God... so it that what this is all about, somehow you associate the word "confess" with your disability? That is interesting, I'm not sure I follow you though... are you suggesting that someone here would position your disease as an unconfessed sin? Because I certainly don't feel that way at all. As I have stated, I think the issue is walking in fellowship vs. walking in darkness. I just want to make sure I understand your view...

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Fredoheaven

Personally too, there are two (2) things happened when someone gave heed the message of the John:

1. Eternal life. Verse 2 is a clear indication of eternal life which life is in his Son which was also with his Father. This life has been broken down since sin entered the world or that relationship we have before God had separated us because of sin. But because of believing Christ saving message of salvation, we are brought back into a new relationship and this realationship is the basis of real fellowship which would bring us to
2. Fellowship. Having that kind of realtionship, we have the real fellowship which is of the Son and of his Father.

John wrote specifically so that our joy may be full. Eternal life, we have peace. Fellowhsip, we have joy in its fullest.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
1 John 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

I agree, brother.

[Winman]

Forrest

I was deeply impressed and touched by your testimony.

As concerning MS, these are the things we cannot know. There were those in the scriptures who were born with a disability, not because of their sin, or their parents sin (a very common belief in that day), but to bring glory to God.

John 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. 4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
6 When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,
7 And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.

So, I do not think we can always understand problems like this. You have testified how much closer you have gotten to the Lord because of MS, so in that way, it is a very good thing.

And I can testify also, I have also been a terrible sinner in my life. You know, I think the closer we get to Jesus, the more wretched we see ourselves. I thank the Lord that he loved an ungodly sinner like me and gave his life to give me forgiveness of my sins. And I know you feel that way too.

Originally Posted by Winman

And I can testify also, I have also been a terrible sinner in my life. You know, I think the closer we get to Jesus, the more wretched we see ourselves. I thank the Lord that he loved an ungodly sinner like me and gave his life to give me forgiveness of my sins. And I know you feel that way too.