[Greektim]

He is quite the Hebrew scholar, no doubt about that.

His book Israelology: the Missing Link in Systematic Theology is his landmark text. It burries all forms of covenantalism (Premill, Postmill, & Amill).

[greenbear]

I always meant to read that. Add another book to my list. I need a maid.

[CKG]

=greenbear;

God says Eve transgressed because she was deceived.

Eve was deceived, but God in his word says she made a choice

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

James 1:14-15 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Adam and Eve didn't have a sin nature when they ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Eve was deceived and Adam decided to follow his wife. God said they would die in the day they eatest thereof. Clearly, something happened immediatley after they disobeyed God's only commandment for them. God wasn't just speaking of the physical death of the body but also spiritual death.

That is my point. Adam and Eve didn't have a sin nature when they ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but it was sin for them to eat it. What caused them to sin? Yes, the serpent laid out the temptation, but Eve had a choice. Eve saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise and she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat. She made a choice. She chose the lust of her flesh, and the lust of her eyes, and the pride of life over God’s revealed will. She then gave unto Adam and he did eat. They sinned and now had a guilty conscience. Did their spirit die? The Bible doesn’t say so. You would think the Bible would mention something like that. If the Bible mentions God’s Spirit coming upon and departing from Saul (1 Samuel 10:10 and 1 Samuel 16:14) you’d think it would mention something as monumental as Adam and Eve’s spirit dying. Look up the word spirit in the OT and you will see that men had a spirit and this is before the new birth.

There is such a thing as a sin nature passed down to adam's descendants.

Not in the KJV.

Mankind has no power to keep from sinning. If we only had to deal with the same circumstances that Adam did perhaps we would make the decision to obey God? We're not in the same situation that Adam was in. God says we are helpless to cease sinning

It seems to me that the idea that sin is in the flesh, flesh being defined as purely physical , is not of christian origin. I think there is some connection to the manichaean view that sin is of the physical realm. When Adam sinned he died spiritually. Sin is a spiritual, not a physical, thing. This idea that there is no sin nature seems dangerous to me.

You’re talking philosophy and theology and not the Bible. Adam and Eve deliberately sinned against the clear will of God. They now had a guilty conscience before God. God had every right to strike them down, but instead he showed mercy and took the life of the innocent animal. But sin brings consequences. One of them being they were removed from the Garden of Eden and their fellowship with God severed. They no longer had access to the tree of life so they were now subject to death. They wanted their way and to follow the flesh so God let them have their way. With no access to the tree of life they eventually died. We all come into this world “outside the garden” without hope and without God with bodies subject to death. The wages of sin is death. As you said “Adam's offense put the curse of death upon all of his descendants”. We come into this world with these fleshly bodies; in a world ruled by Satan; a world that poses every kind of temptation imaginable and none of us are able to resist. All have sinned, not because of some “sin nature” which is a man-made theological term, but because we choose to sin. We choose the lust of the flesh. You say “this idea that there is no sin nature seems dangerous to me”. The idea of a sin nature comes from Calvinism. They say when Adam and Eve sinned they died spiritually and got a sin nature and that we are born spiritually dead with a sin nature. They say because we are spiritually dead and have a sin nature we don’t even have the ability to believe the gospel and that God has to regenerate us; cause us to be born again and then we can believe. That my friend is dangerous and unscriptural.

Romans 6:12-13 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Romans 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Romans 7
18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

2 Corinthians 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

1 Peter 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

2 Peter 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
These thirteen words prove there is a sin nature.

-If the Bible says we were "shapen in iniquity" and "conceived in sin," then it has to be so.
And the above text would teach that men are born sinners if it were meant to be taken literally. But the language of this text is not literal, it is figurative. Both context and reality demand a figurative interpretation of this text.
For example, let's compare Psalm 51:5 with Job 1:21, which says: "Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither." If Psalm 51:5 can be interpreted literally to teach the doctrine that David and all other men are born sinners, then Job 1:21 can be interpreted literally to teach the doctrine that Job and all other men will some day go back into their mother's womb.
Neither Psalm 51:5 nor Job 1:21 is to be understood literally. They are both figurative expressions. Both context and our knowledge of reality demand a figurative interpretation of these two texts.
David uses figurative language throughout his Psalms. In fact, in the 51st Psalm, verses five, seven, and eight are all figurative expressions. So if verse five can be made to teach that men are born sinners, then verse seven can be made to teach that hyssop cleanses us from sin when it says, "Purge me with hyssop and I shall be clean." Also, verse eight can be made to teach the doctrine that God breaks the Christian's bones when he sins, and that his broken bones rejoice when he is forgiven "Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice." Another of David's Psalms, Psalm 58:3, can be made to teach the astonishing doctrine that babies speak from the very moment they are born: "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies."
But who would seriously teach from this last text that babies actually do speak as soon as they are born? None of these passages is meant to be understood in a literal sense. They are all figurative expressions. If they were understood literally, they would all teach what we know to be contrary to reality; for reality teaches us that bones don't rejoice, hyssop doesn't purge sin, babies don't speak as soon as they leave the womb, and an unborn child is not morally depraved.
The same rules of interpretation that would permit Psalm 51:5 to teach that babies are born sinners, would, if applied to these passages (or if applied to many other passages in the Bible), allow for every kind of perversion and wild interpretation of God's Word. Look again at the words of Job 1:21: "Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither." Did Job, by these words, mean to teach that he and all other men would some day go back into their mother's womb? We know that such a meaning is absurd. But it is just as reasonable to give to Job 1:21 the nonsensical meaning that Job and all other men will some day go back into their mother's womb, as it is to give to Psalm 51:5 the nonsensical meaning that David and all other men are born sinners. David was not teaching in this passage that he was born a sinner. He instead was confessing to God the awful guilt and sinfulness of his heart, and he cried out to God in strong language the language of figure and symbol to express that awful guilt and sinfulness.
But if David intended to affirm that he was literally "shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin," then he affirmed absolute nonsense, and he charged his Creator with making him a sinner; for David knew that God was his Maker:
Thy hands have made me and fashioned me. Psalm 119:73
Know ye that the Lord he is God: It is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves. Psalm 100:3
Are we to understand from these passages that God fashions men into sinners in their mother's womb? No, we know that God does not create sinners. Yet, upon the supposition that Psalm 51:5 teaches that men are born sinners, these texts could teach nothing else. Who cannot see that the doctrine that men are born sinners charges God with creating sinners? It represents man as being formed a sinner in his mother's womb, when the Bible clearly teaches that God forms man in his mother's womb. It represents man as coming into this world a sinner, when the Bible clearly teaches that God creates all men. It may be objected that God created only Adam and Eve, and that the rest of mankind descended from them by natural generation. But this objection does not relieve the doctrine of an inherited sin nature of its slander and libel of the character of God. For if man has a sinful nature at birth, who is it who established the laws of procreation under which he would be born with that nature? God, of course. There is no escaping the logical inference that is implicit in the doctrine of an inherited sin nature. It is a blasphemous and slanderous libel on the character of God.
But one might as well reject the Bible out of hand, if he does not want to recognize that God is the Creator of all men. For the fact that God is the Creator of all men is one of the clearest truths taught in the Bible.
Thy hands have made me and fashioned me. Psalm 119:73
Thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee: for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Psalm 139:13, 14
Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb? Job 31:15
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee. Jer. 1:5
Have we not all one father? Hath not one God created us? Mal. 2:10
Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth. Eccl. 12:1
Know ye that the Lord he is God; it is he that hath made us and not we ourselves. Psalm 100:3
I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth...for it repenteth me that I have made them. Gen. 6:7
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...So God created man in his image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Gen. 1:26,27
Ye are gods; and all of you are the children of the most High. Psalm 82:6
For in the image of God made he man. Gen. 9:6
Man is the image and glory of God. I Cor. 11:7
Men are made after the similitude of God. James 3:9
The Lord formeth the spirit of man within him. Zech. 12:1
The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. Job 33:4
He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things. Acts 17:25
We are the offspring of God. Acts 17:29
I am the root and the offspring of David. Rev. 22:16
Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. Eccl. 7:29
This last text not only declares that God has created man, but it also affirms that God created man upright. If man is created upright, he cannot be born a sinner; and if he is born a sinner, he cannot be created upright. Either one or the other may be true, but they cannot both be true for the two are contradictories.
But when God says he "created us in his image, and gave us life and breath and all things," are we to understand that he created us as sinners? When he says, "We are his offspring," are we to understand that his offspring are born sinners? When Jesus said, "I am the root and the offspring of David," are we to understand that David sprang forth from the root Christ Jesus with a sinful nature? Or, are we to understand that Jesus, as the offspring of David, was born with a sinful nature? The very fact that Jesus was a man, descended from Adam, and born with a human nature as we are, shows that men are not born with a sinful nature. I John 4:3, II John 7, Heb. 2:14, Heb. 2:16-18, Heb. 4:15, Rom. 1:3, Matt. 1:1, Luke 3:38.

[greenbear]

Originally Posted by chette777

No where have I ever seen a reptile recorded in a description of a Cherubim either. but why are you thinking that a cherub is a reptile? because of the serpent and dragon of the Bible.

is a cherub and Cherubim the same?

sounds like a far fetch guess that Lucifer was a reptilian order. if the four cherubim around the throne all have the same description applied to them it would follow that the one that covereth would be of the same class not different.

Chette,

Maybe they changed when Satan fell. I read something a while ago about this. Something about watchers over different animal kinds. I don't even remember if I was swayed by it. I'll try to remember where I read it or search the scriptures. It may be a while.

[greenbear]

CKG- I'll get back to you in a few days.

[CKG]

Originally Posted by greenbear

CKG- I'll get back to you in a few days.

No problem. I don't want to come across as argumentative. Like most on this forum I'm a believer who wants to know the truth of God's word. There are areas that God has opened my eyes to (such as the Bible version issue), but when I read what others have posted on the various threads I realize what a long way I have to go. I can get in the flesh like anyone else so I have to remind myself when I post that my point is not to win the argument or debate, but to learn what the Bible says and teaches.

Originally Posted by greenbear

Oh, Bro. Parrish thanks for posting this link. I've read Footsteps of The Messiah several times years ago. I don't agree with everything but he is brilliant. I can't wait to read this one!

Yes, please keep in mind sister, I don't agree with all of his material either. As I mentioned before, I linked that as a follow up to the suggestion that this topic was a "Jewish fable." What better man to answer that than a Jew named Fruchtenbaum...

[CKG]

Originally Posted by kevinvw

The Bible says we were dead and had to be made alive, and that we by nature fulfilled the lust of the flesh and were the children of wrath.

We are said to be dead in the trespasses and sins, and Peter tells us that it is the Holy Spirit that quickens us. The Holy Spirit gives us the new birth that quickens our spirit. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jesus had both births simultaneously. He was born of water (physically) and of blood (God's blood, spiritually). He never walked after the flesh because He had the power of God, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have. Just like we can walk after the lusts of the flesh even though we have been born of the Spirit and have been covered in God's blood, but through the Spirit of God we can overcome our flesh, the same as Jesus did and we are told that Jesus will help us do it.

Not everything is spelled out letter for letter or word for word.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins

Most people read this verse to say “And you hath he quickened, who were born spiritually dead”. This verse says nothing about our birth state. As a matter of fact our being dead is attributed to our trespasses and sins.

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Notice we walked according to the world, the prince of the power of the air and the lusts of our flesh (our 3 enemies – the world, flesh and the devil). It is because we walked according to the world, the prince of the power of the air and the lusts of our flesh that we were by nature children of wrath. That is not a statement about a “sin nature”. When it says by nature it means the natural outcome or result of walking according to the world, the prince of the power of the air and the lusts of our flesh is we are children of wrath.

Paul said “For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.” (Romans 7:9)

There was a point in Paul’s life when he became aware of his sinfulness and he says he died. God only holds us accountable for what we know. Babies, children to a certain age and severely mentally handicapped people have no knowledge of good and evil. They are not held accountable. If they die before the age of accountability they go to be with the Lord. When the children of Israel refused to enter the land God said those 20 years old and upward would perish

Numbers 14:29-31 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward which have murmured against me. Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun. But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.

Why would those under 20 not perish?

Deut 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

I don’t know what the age of accountability is and it probably varies with individuals, but when a person reaches the age of knowing good and evil they are now accountable for their sins.

Sin is something we do.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law

When we have knowingly sinned (after reaching the age of accountability) we are now dead in trespasses and sins. We have the death sentence on us. We are then children of wrath, because unless a person gets saved they will perish; experience the second death. At the Great White Throne judgment people will be judged for what they should've done, but didn't and what they did, but shouldn't have.


Jesus said we had to be born again. If we were spiritually dead like you say he would’ve said we need a resurrection, not a birth. His point was we’ve all been born of the flesh, but to enter into the kingdom of God we need to be born of the Spirit. Peter said we were quickened by the Spirit. We now have the life of God in us.

There is a raising from the dead, but it’s after the death we died with Christ.

Romans 6
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

[CKG]

Originally Posted by pbiwolski

Oh, that isn't all...

Unless I missed it, no one has yet referenced Daniel 2 in connection to the words of Christ mentioned aboved and Gen. 6.

Dan. 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

There are the days of Noe in the future during the tribulation. And the wickedness condoned and encouraged by the presence of the Devil Incarnate is only comparable to the result of the sons of God cohabitting with the daughters of men. That wickedness that followed invited the judgment of God (flood) just as will the future.

I’m not sure there is a relationship between Genesis 6 and Daniel 2:43. Whether you believe, accept, or comprehend Genesis 6, it is pretty clear in what it is saying.

Genesis 6
1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

The Bible makes reference to 4 persons or person called the son of God or sons of God.

1. Jesus - Mark 1:1, John 20:31, Daniel 3:25
2. Adam - Luke 3:38
3. Believers - John 1:12, Romans 8:14, Philippians 2:15, 1 John 3:1, 1 John 3:2
4. Angels - Job 1:6, Job 2:1, Job 38:7

It's safe to say you can eliminate the first three as having reference to Genesis 6. That leaves number 4. I personally do not believe the events of Genesis 6:2 will happen again.

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (Jude 6)

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; (2 Peter 2:4)

Daniel 2:43 is in a different context which is talking about coming kingdoms as Daniel interprets Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. The "they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men:" seems to suggest that this kingdom will be a mixture of people and ideaologies versus a predominant Babylonian or Greek empire.

A couple of cross references.

Ezra 9:2 For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass.

Psalm 106:35 But were mingled among the heathen, and learned their works.


Daniel 2
1And in the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams, wherewith his spirit was troubled, and his sleep brake from him.
2Then the king commanded to call the magicians, and the astrologers, and the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans, for to shew the king his dreams. So they came and stood before the king.
3And the king said unto them, I have dreamed a dream, and my spirit was troubled to know the dream.
4Then spake the Chaldeans to the king in Syriack, O king, live for ever: tell thy servants the dream, and we will shew the interpretation.
5The king answered and said to the Chaldeans, The thing is gone from me: if ye will not make known unto me the dream, with the interpretation thereof, ye shall be cut in pieces, and your houses shall be made a dunghill.
6But if ye shew the dream, and the interpretation thereof, ye shall receive of me gifts and rewards and great honour: therefore shew me the dream, and the interpretation thereof.
7They answered again and said, Let the king tell his servants the dream, and we will shew the interpretation of it.
8The king answered and said, I know of certainty that ye would gain the time, because ye see the thing is gone from me.
9But if ye will not make known unto me the dream, there is but one decree for you: for ye have prepared lying and corrupt words to speak before me, till the time be changed: therefore tell me the dream, and I shall know that ye can shew me the interpretation thereof.
10The Chaldeans answered before the king, and said, There is not a man upon the earth that can shew the king's matter: therefore there is no king, lord, nor ruler, that asked such things at any magician, or astrologer, or Chaldean.
11And it is a rare thing that the king requireth, and there is none other that can shew it before the king, except the gods, whose dwelling is not with flesh.
12For this cause the king was angry and very furious, and commanded to destroy all the wise men of Babylon.
13And the decree went forth that the wise men should be slain; and they sought Daniel and his fellows to be slain.
14Then Daniel answered with counsel and wisdom to Arioch the captain of the king's guard, which was gone forth to slay the wise men of Babylon:
15He answered and said to Arioch the king's captain, Why is the decree so hasty from the king? Then Arioch made the thing known to Daniel.
16Then Daniel went in, and desired of the king that he would give him time, and that he would shew the king the interpretation.
17Then Daniel went to his house, and made the thing known to Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, his companions:
18That they would desire mercies of the God of heaven concerning this secret; that Daniel and his fellows should not perish with the rest of the wise men of Babylon.
19Then was the secret revealed unto Daniel in a night vision. Then Daniel blessed the God of heaven.
20Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his:
21And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
22He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him.
23I thank thee, and praise thee, O thou God of my fathers, who hast given me wisdom and might, and hast made known unto me now what we desired of thee: for thou hast now made known unto us the king's matter.
24Therefore Daniel went in unto Arioch, whom the king had ordained to destroy the wise men of Babylon: he went and said thus unto him; Destroy not the wise men of Babylon: bring me in before the king, and I will shew unto the king the interpretation.
25Then Arioch brought in Daniel before the king in haste, and said thus unto him, I have found a man of the captives of Judah, that will make known unto the king the interpretation.
26The king answered and said to Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, Art thou able to make known unto me the dream which I have seen, and the interpretation thereof?
27Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers, shew unto the king;
28But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;
29As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass.
30But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart.
31Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
32This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
36This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
37Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
38And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
39And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
40And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
46Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him.
47The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.
48Then the king made Daniel a great man, and gave him many great gifts, and made him ruler over the whole province of Babylon, and chief of the governors over all the wise men of Babylon.
49Then Daniel requested of the king, and he set Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, over the affairs of the province of Babylon: but Daniel sat in the gate of the king.

[greenbear]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

Response to GB's first comments:

Greenbear, based on your answers, particularly that there are fallen angels that did not participate in the Genesis 6 event, are you acknowledging that this is possibly an ongoing activity?

In reference to:
GB, think about what you are saying. These women had no power to prevent this assault (Genesis 6:2 "...they took them wives of all which they chose.") God, foreknowing the actions of that these evil ones would commit, allowed this assault on unprotected, innocent women to take place for however long, and then immediately (and without comment, while at the same time expressing His anger with mankind) slammed the chains on them, leaving the results of their actions to further the destruction of mankind, AND on top of it, left others to perpetuate the same behavior later!?! Verse 3 and 5 scream out the perpetrators of this crime, MAN!

Job*1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
Job*1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job*1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Ec*10:8 He that diggeth a pit shall fall into it; and whoso breaketh an hedge, a serpent shall bite him.

Le*20:23 And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.

Le*20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

De*12:29 When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land;
De*12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
De*12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

Mal*3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

GB, think about what you are saying. These women had no power to prevent this assault (Genesis 6:2 "...they took them wives of all which they chose.") God, foreknowing the actions of that these evil ones would commit, allowed this assault on unprotected, innocent women to take place for however long, and then immediately (and without comment, while at the same time expressing His anger with mankind) slammed the chains on them, leaving the results of their actions to further the destruction of mankind, AND on top of it, left others to perpetuate the same behavior later!?! Verse 3 and 5 scream out the perpetrators of this crime, MAN!

Women were the possessions of their fathers, then their husbands. Christianity has improved the lot of women although unbelievers would NEVER see it that way. A christian man could practically get himself assasinated for saying this but I'm a woman so I'll say it. Ga*3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Consider the nations that the Lord God commanded Israel to drive out of the land. The cup of God's wrath was full concerning them. Let's look at why God was so angry. They consulted familiar spirits Through their idol worship they worshiped devils. They caused their children to pass through the fire to Him. He was angry with the overwhelming evil of these nations. Of course, nephilim were alive and well at that time in the promised land. Sort of like in Gen 6, don't ya think?
God warned Israel not to do the things that those nations before them did.

God puts a hedge of protection around believers. He warns us not to partake in occultic practices because the hedge is broken and we are vulnerable to evil spiritual powers. In Gen 6, God was very angry at man. It seems apparent to me, at least, that man in Gen 6 was doing the same things the nations were doing that Israel drove out of the land. Ps*78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them. This verse does more than prove Jude and 2 Pet don't deal with Satan's rebellion. It also describes God sending evil angels to punish man's evil. Interesting.

I hope that clears up any misunderstanding you may have about what my arguments have been.