[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Biblestudent

Whew! I have not thoroughly read through this thread; but before it's shut down, is there anyone who share my view on water baptism?

The water baptism taught and practiced by Paul has a DIFFERENT mode and meaning than the water baptism taught and practiced by John the Baptist, Jesus Christ (in His earthly ministry), and the Twelve.

My friend, I'd like to see the Scripture for this, sicne there is only one baptism efficacious in the Body of Christ today and I don't see a drop of water in it.

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

I'm familiar with multiple choice baptisms, as the Church Of Christ I came out of teaches when we go under the water:

1. We come into contact by the Spirit with Christ's Blood while under.
2. We are made partakers of Christ's death while under water.

I never figgered then why they pulled us out, seems holding you under would be the way to come into contact with death.

I'm honestly interested in your position, please procede.

Grace and peace

Tony

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Biblestudent

Brother Tony,
Leviticus 8 wasn't labelled nor referred to as "baptism" anywhere in the Bible.

Read Hebrews 5 to get the context of Christ as the great High Priest of Israel with Aaron and his consecration and sanctification by water baptism and the pouring of oil as Christ was baptized by a Levite to let the line and practice remain unbroken and then the Holy Spirit, which the oil typified, was poured out on Him in the bodily shape of a dove at His baptism(consecration as High Priest, then meditate on these verses in Hebrews 6 and 9:

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Hebrews 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

No one can disconnect Hebrews, Matthew, and the practices of the Law. What God hath joined together let no man put asunder.

I'm going to channel brother Tim and brag on myself a little: There's no man on this planet knows the books not written to me, better than me.

Grace and peace my friend

Tony

[Brother Tim]

Brother Tony, are you having "flashbacks"? You're dredging up a lot of posts from the past. It is hard to keep up with the context.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by chette777

"would like to finish and get SCRIPTURE as to why the water baptism of Leviticus 8 is not related to John's baptism of repentance,"

Le 8:6 And Moses brought Aaron and his sons, and washed them with water.

This seems to be the verse that Tbones is referencing to. the whole context of Lev 8 is Moses preparing Arron and his sons for their priestly duties.

I am not sure how Moses washed them, did he fully immerse them or did he sprinkle them? did he give them a sponge bath? I guess we would have to trust it was a bath to make them physically clean.

the sacrifice later would be that which would make them spiritually clean for the moment of their duties.

here is John's Baptism.

Mt 3:1-6 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey. Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance:

Mr 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

from this verse it seems those getting baptized. And but it seems it went along with confessing their sins and repentance is mentioned. It would seem baptism of John was something the people (not Levite priests) were doing as a token of their repentance from their confessed sin.

The bath Moses gave them was not for remission of sins but physical cleansing. the sacrifice was for the remission and forgiveness of sin.

John also Preached that baptism was for repentance for the remission of sins. So if a person got baptized it was so they could receive the remission of their sins. I really don't see any similarity to the bath Moses Gave Arron and his sons in Lev 8.

the law required Jews to bring a sacrifice. but the person that the animal was sacrificed for was not told to take a bath. the bath that Moses gave was for the Levite priests only not for the whole congregation.

John was giving them remission with no sacrifice which is different from the Law which required the sacrifice of an animal.

There are many differences between the bath of Lev 8 and John's baptism. but there are no similarities.

And still no Scripture as to why they are not similar.

Ex 29:29 And the holy garments of Aaron shall be his sons’ after him, to be anointed therein, and to be consecrated in them.
Le 21:10 And he that is the high priest among his brethren, upon whose head the anointing oil was poured, and that is consecrated to put on the garments, shall not uncover his head, nor rend his clothes;
Nu 3:3 These are the names of the sons of Aaron, the priests which were anointed, whom he consecrated to minister in the priest’s office.

We see above the consecration(washing for cleanliness to wear the garments)and the sanctification by the oil(the type of the Holy Spirit)as the first steps in making a priest.

Ex 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Exodus 29:4 And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.
5 And thou shalt take the garments, and put upon Aaron the coat, and the robe of the ephod, and the ephod, and the breastplate, and gird him with the curious girdle of the ephod:
6 And thou shalt put the mitre upon his head, and put the holy crown upon the mitre.
7 Then shalt thou take the anointing oil, and pour it upon his head, and anoint him.

Exodus 40:12 And thou shalt bring Aaron and his sons unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and wash them with water.
13 And thou shalt put upon Aaron the holy garments, and anoint him, and sanctify him; that he may minister unto me in the priest’s office.
14 And thou shalt bring his sons, and clothe them with coats:
15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest’s office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.

In Exodus 29 ans 40 we see Moses being given the instruction for the consecration and sanctification of the priesthood. In Leviticus 8 we see it first carried out:

Lev. 8:6 And Moses brought Aaron and his sons, and washed them with water.
7 And he put upon him the coat, and girded him with the girdle, and clothed him with the robe, and put the ephod upon him, and he girded him with the curious girdle of the ephod, and bound it unto him therewith.
8 And he put the breastplate upon him: also he put in the breastplate the Urim and the Thummim.
9 And he put the mitre upon his head; also upon the mitre, even upon his forefront, did he put the golden plate, the holy crown; as the LORD commanded Moses.
10 And Moses took the anointing oil, and anointed the tabernacle and all that was therein, and sanctified them.
11 And he sprinkled thereof upon the altar seven times, and anointed the altar and all his vessels, both the laver and his foot, to sanctify them.
12 And he poured of the anointing oil upon Aaron’s head, and anointed him, to sanctify him.

Eze 44:10 And the Levites that are gone away far from me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity.

Oops, looks like we found where not only the people of the nation of Israel needing repentance in the days of Jesus's ministry on earth but the Levites also before they can be the "holy nation" of Exodus 19:

Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

The Levites and the rest of the nation was in a serious need for repentance before their consecration. They had to be "consecrated to wear the garments", this consecration and fruits meet for repentence was John's baptism(Levitical washing) of repentance that Israel might be made a kingdom of priests and an "holy nation".

Jesus sat and read to Jews a little prophetic passage and he stops reading in the middle of verse 2 of Isaiah 61, brother, there is a 2000 year gap between that division of one verse:


Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

Note 2000 years between the acceptable year of the Lord and "...the day of vengeance..." and then see who shows up in verse 6 below:

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

John's, Jesus's, and the Twelve Apostle's converts Peter writes to, and notice what kind of nation in Peter's words and Exodus 19 as Peter writes to this believing remnant that obeyed the ordinances given to Israel, not the Body of Christ:

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Scripture with Scripture brother, there it is. John came to manifest Jesus Christ as their High Priest over an entire kingdom of priests. That's the purpose of most of the book of Hebrews, to declare the great High Priest.

You can't bend the Scriptures around a preconceived denominational notion of "following the Lord in Believers Baptism" because the Scriptures can't be broken, and because no one "follows the Lord in Believers Sabbatical for 40 days in the desert", "follows the Lord in Believers Scourging" nor "follows the Lord in Believers Crucifixion". This is as "testy" as I plan to get in this thread, but in Ezekiel 2 the Lord tells Ezekiel why he will preach the word of God to stiffnecked and stubborn people who won't listen to the clear word of God laid out for them: Unbelieving Israel will know a prophet of God was among them, in this thread no one reading this will ever be able to preach the doctrinal error of "following the Lord in Believers Baptism" ever again without a nagging doubt in your mind.

Grace and peace brothers and sisters

Tony

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

I've shown water baptism, and I don't use this as a cuss-word as "hyperdispensationalist" or "Bullengerite" is used against those like me, but I've shown water baptism to be hyperdenominationalism.

LOL, I was wondering how long it would take for you to creep back in here and start dragging up the old threads. This is very typical of hypers. And those are not CUSS WORDS at all, and they are FAR LESS flammatory than some hyper confused fellow stepping in here and telling all the pastors and Christians that their believer's baptism is UNSCRIPTURAL and part of the Mosaic Law.

I agree with Brother Ruckman, when he writes:

"The man who subscribes to hyperdispensationalism is as hung up on non-baptism as any Campbellite preacher who ever lived is hung up on water baptism. As a matter of fact, the more you watch these people through the years the more you realize that they have a NEUROTIC OBSESSION obsession with this phase of their Bible learning. The all-important thing to the hyper-dispensationalist is to get rid of Baptist churches. These people are obsessed with this to the point of fanaticism."

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

If I am teaching bad doctrine, show me Scripture that it's bad, brother. Expose it. Brother, you didn't start the thread but you are as of this minute still participating in it. That's what I am waiting on, someone to expose it, with Scripture. I threw down no glove, I'm standing for what the Scriptures teach.

Nonsense, the scriptures do not teach that, this is a perversion of the clear doctrines of the Bible—with a view that so far only 4 other people have been confused about enough to even agree with you. Support for your view has been so weak here that you have been off on another thread trying to bash Baptists and start this trouble over there, until I called you on it.

I already presented plenty of SCRIPTURE in posts 5 and 47, and stated you are wrong. Bro. Tim presented SCRIPTURE and indicated you are wrong. Bro, George presented plenty of SCRIPTURE and stated you are wrong. Bro. Matt responded to you in love and made his case for baptism clear. Chette also baptizes believers to this day, he presented SCRIPTURE and indicated clearly that Baptism is not an OT law. Fredoheaven presented plenty of SCRIPTURE and determined you are wrong. I gave you the words of Ironside with MORE SCRIPTURE. I gave you the words of Dr. Ruckman with MORE SCRIPTURE. I gave you the words Dr. David E. Walker with MORE SCRIPTURE.

So please don't "pretend" like no one has given you scripture, that's a smokescreen for more argument, because you have already ignored the scripture.

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

Brother, I'm not responding to a name-calling, spittle-flecked rant...

Tony, you are being shown a lot of love and patience here.
I don't think ANY of us have approached this with anger or "name-calling, spittle-flecked rants" as you claim. However it should be noted that YOU already wrote:

"Though I am a fundamentalist Christian, that is the reason I am not now and never will be a Baptist: That bloodcurdling, Pharisaic, separationist authoritarianism I found manifest in the Ruckman forum on Yahoo in 2005-6."
http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1216&page=15

"It's my personal opinion you don't have any Scripture to counter my position over there and it's fallen upon poor brother George to bell the cat with me over there, the church splittin' dry cleaner, and I am smiling saying that."
http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1216&page=18

So everyone can see how HYPOCRITICAL you are being brother, stereotyping and projecting Baptists as "bloodcurdling pharisees," and shifting this issue onto other threads.

I TRIED to get you to avoid all this. Bro. George TRIED to avoid it too. Let's face it, we're not the ones who started calling you a "CHURCH SPLITTER and DRY CLEANER," you started randomly calling YOURSELF those titles long ago before this thread EVER STARTED—no doubt to call attention to an issue which you are obsessed about like every Bullingerite out there. NOW WHY IS THAT, why are you seeking ATTENTION to this over and over again? Anyone who knows Hyperdispensationalism already knows the answer.

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

Now, I'm not going to compare anybody to anything, I'm just going to stand on my convictions unto death as Peter did with the Jews in Acts 10 brother.

Yes, well you can stand on the moon and eat green cheese if you want—but, telling Christians that their believer's baptism is UNSCRIPTURAL and part of the mosaic law is STILL wrong, it's STILL leaven and it STILL stinks.

[chette777]

Tbones,

I don't see any scriptures you have given even show water Baptism as that of John or the church has any similarity with Priestly anointings or bathing.

you have no scripture to support that they are the similar. All the scriptures you quote are so far away from Baptism you would have to be wearing priestly washing/baptism glasses to even see it. If you did find some passages they would have to come from Paul and he gives none. for his teaching is for us immediately today on matters of doctrine and Practice not the OT. the OT is only for our learning and admonishment not for priestly baths or Baptisms

By the way I am not a Baptist. I am associated actually with Calvary Chapel. and you wont find many like me in their organization (there are a few)

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

Okay, Tony, I said that I was finished, so I am already going past where I determined to stop. But I must answer a few things.

1 ) If you will review the beginning, you can see that it was not my intent to SOLVE the difference in belief and unify everyone. Instead, it was to find out if the belief expressed by you was common. I never committed to debating the subject. I do appreciate your willingness to explain as I have not studied the argument for ending baptism before. I did leave one forum because the new moderator held that belief and intended to push it on everyone.

2 ) I do recognize that Brandon is in charge. That is why I asked instead of demanded that the thread end.

3 ) Levity is not wrong. You use sarcasm as a means of expressing yourself, unless you are boasting of being a church splitter. (I certainly hope not!)

4 ) I know that I will not convince you to change how you see this. This is why I did not give a series of reasons why you are wrong. Others have, so why would my input be differently received? You should also know that I am not moving either. If you wish to continue the thread explaining in its entirety your doctrine on baptism, please do so. Only do not accuse me of being a quitter or running away.

Tim, if my statements about you starting the thread and wanting to end it were harsh or unfounded, I apologize. But 18 people known to me have read these threads including this one particularly. All 18 believe more or less as I do. Why then did they not join the forum? Out of respect for you people and for me, they do not want to leave the impression that I would stack the deck so to speak, and make their participation a one-issue thing and that's how they would be viewed by most of you since they agree with me on this. The poll is open to all members, and the poll would be 23 against water baptism and 29 for. That's not the spirit of my participation or of the people I know and fellowship with elsewhere.

Brother, speaking man to man, you said you were gonna clean my clock on this issue. Then you turned it over to brother George to answer the very first questions I asked, which is perfectly fine with me, George, indeed all of you, are alright and as we used to say in the biker bar, you all are good people. To be blunt, 18 people felt you back out.

Their words, not mine.

Tim, 99 percent of independent fundamentalist churches are broken up by people who worm their way in and try and control the church through the offering box, usurping the Holy Ghost's control through the Scriptures. I don;t know of any grace churches and IFB ever spilt. I know many were split by kenosis, Universalism, Stam's Calvinism, and the Bible version issue. All churches split at one time or another, all cells divide or they are dead. My sense of humor is a bit esoteric, I was an embalmer once, in the morning I prepped an elderly person, in the afternoon I might put an infant back together that was thrown from a moving car into a chain link fence by Mommie who was cranked out. Think about that one. My humor on "church splittin'" is tongue in cheek. A grace church that teaches only dispensationalism to the detriment of the gospel of Christ, an IFB church that puts the emphasis on water baptism to the detriment of the gospel of Christ both deserve to be spilt. I think a sense of Us Vs Them has been created between IFBs and Grace believers by one-issue folks on both sides.

Yep, my position and fellow Grace believers is over here in this minute minority, my position is extreme left or right, I'm over here with the snake handlers? That's simple rhetoric brother, I say that with Pauline charity and fellowship. Water baptism is not part of the Law of Moses?

Show me Scripture it ain't.

Grace and peace brother Tim

Tony

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Diligent

I guess I should speak up. Here's where I stand:

As I see it, Tony was asked to state (and by extension, defend) his position on water baptism. And as I see it, he has not yet had an opportunity to do so. I would like Tony to be able to give his defense/arguments before I shut the thread down (assuming I have to). I believe it would be unjust to shut him out of the discussion at this point.

Now, to be open and clear: I have heard the arguments about water baptism being under the Law before and I find them very unconvincing. One reason I would like Tony to give his position is because I don't understand how someone who is so "straight" on so much could go for that -- and I'd like to understand.

Brother, my stand is what I said earlier: If for some reason you end the thread, the only catagory I don't post in is Missions, there is plenty for us to post and comment on. For my part, my prophecy is that this thread will run till people get tired of it and we will move on.

I think I''ve given a pretty straight line on water baptism back to Exodus 29 and rooted in Exodus 19. My Scriptural evidence, if it's unsound, I'd like someone to simply show me then, what are they?

Grace and peace brother

Tony

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

Brandon, I agree that Tony should have the opportunity to explain his belief. We are on page 9 or so and in the 85+ post range. He has said several times that he is not "out of first gear" yet. I am happy to give him as much room as needed to cover the subject front to back and then he can answer questions about it. If questions or comments are made otherwise, then when will we know that he has been able to present the whole set of facts as he sees them?

You expressed well my own thoughts on the matter. This doctrine is strange to me. Tony has hit a lot of other topics right in the center, but this one is way off in left (or right) field, far from mainline belief.

Brother, if the Scriptures I stand on here don't lead to the conclusion that water baptism if part of the Law, what are they, what conclusion do they draw, how have I missapplied them?

Grace and peace my friend

tony

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Greektim

I don't think Tony will be convinced with pointing out Scripture to which he already has read before. What is holding him back is his system of theology (please correct me if I am wrong, Tony). That's ok b/c my system of theology which I see rise from Scripture holds me back from abstaining from baptism. We all do this. Since he holds to a later date for the beginning of the Church, then that will affect his interpretation to those passages. So maybe it would be better to discuss the birthday of the Church. Just a thought.

Brother, you start the thread, with your indulgence, only these rules:

No Greek.
No Hebrew
No commentaries
The final authority is the English text of the KJV.

I can well say the same thing Tim, the opposition to my position on water baptism, and many other grace believers, is a denominational myopia. We are at an impasses', in my view a peaceful one. I'd like it to stay that way for my part and that this thread ends because everything that could be said has been and we are tired of it.

Grace and peace brother

Tony