Greenbear: // ... why would God call Jesus and Lucifer/Satan by the same appellations? //


Appellation in
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/appellations
1. a name, title, or designation.

Simple: God did NOT call Lucifer (A name) and/or Satan (a Title) by the same appellation. God used a metaphor that most people can keep straight, but apparently not all. The problem here is a lack of human imagination, not the translation(s)

So how do you at your church determine if a Scripture Problem exists? Do you go to a Rabbi and ask him? Do you vote on the matter like Baptists tend to do (and other congregationalsis do?)

Here is what I think:

If there is an apparent conflict (disagrreement) between two scriptures (translations or within one translation) -- it is NOT God's fault. It is a problem among the person or people having the conflict (disagrreement).

Luke has me pegged here:
"every bible is the perfect word of God"!

Here is my proof text:

2 Ti 3:16-17 (KJV1611 Editon, e-sword.com ):
All Scripture is giuen by inspiration of God, & is profitable for doctrine, for reproofe, for correction, for instrution in righteousnesse,
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished vnto all good workes.

To the KJVO, "all scripture" = KJV(particular edition) or KJV (all editions). To me there are "all scripture"s others beside the KJVs.

So yes, I take the moral High Ground:

It is better to de-conflict the Bible (or Bibles) than to damn all God's other Bibles.

The axiom: The KJV is God's only English Bible.

Leads to error concllusion: that apparent conflict is cause your NIV is NOT a Bible.

The axiom: The KJV is God's Best English Bible.

Leads to: that apparent conflict is cause the NIV is like the KJV (in the place we are discussing here, Isaiah 14:12).

[Luke]

Ed, the internet has only been in it's current form since about 1995.. so I guess you were "soldiering" on during the heyday of Bulletin Board systems.

The only thing I ever used BBS's for was playing Legend of the Red Dragon and TEOS The Exploration of Space. Those door games have now made a resurgence online - they call them "browser" games now though...

Rev 12:10-11 (KJV1611 Edition, e-sword.com ):
And I heard a lowd voyce saying in heauen, Now is come saluation, and strength, and the kingdome of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they ouercame him by the blood of the Lambe, and by the word of their Testimony, and they loued not their liues vnto the death.

Does it seem to be fair that:

If God's people can overcome Satan/Devil "by the Blood of the Lamb and by the word of their Testimony"
then one's Testimony is of significance.

Here is my Testimony of overcoming Satan/Devil:

Since 1975 (yes 34 years) or so I've been an invitation worker in my current church. I counsel those coming forward at invitation. I've been there when some 280 people were Saved by Jesus. 180 such times I have had a NIV in my hand. about 80 times I had a KJV in my hands. Sorry, but there are Preachers out there & Deacons, Evangelists, Missionaries, Sunday School teachers, and mothers and fathers because of the NIV (yes and convicts, drunks, and homosexuals /well, one died of Aids at age 34/, and other misses).

I believe the KJVs are Bibles, but so are NIVs.

Originally Posted by Luke

Ed, the internet has only been in it's current form since about 1995.. so I guess you were "soldiering" on during the heyday of Bulletin Board systems.

The only thing I ever used BBS's for was playing Legend of the Red Dragon and TEOS The Exploration of Space. Those door games have now made a resurgence online - they call them "browser" games now though...

TeeHee! (a precussor to )
Did I say internet?
I was on Arpanet (government & their contractors) the predecessor of the Internet probably about 1978. When I got my Commodore 64* in June 1984 I got on Genie (part of GE) Bulletin Board. GEnie had a local-call phone line in each major Metro area. (other competition at the time was AOL = American on Line, AOL was more popular cause they put emphesis on do-your-own-thing -- GEnie had the emphasis on security and responsibility. So it was a public bulletin board I got on (or the proto-internet).

Commodore 64 got its name cause it had a woppin' 64K of Memory (that is 0.064 Meg-o-memory or 0.000064 Gig of Memory)

Remember learning how to use a Concordance at church? Now we just use some high-powered search instrument to study the Bible(s).

In fact, I was getting a hernia toting my 16 pound copy of STRONG's around - it is big also & my glasses aren't good enough to read the tiny print -- all replaced by on-line goodies.

Until the internet came along, athe KJV was the only version to use because it had the most different concordances, commentaries and other helps.

I did use the KJVs alone as a Christian 1952 to 1975 or so - some 23 years

[George]

Originally Posted by greenbear

Ed, that's an interesting comment and I plan to do my first word study in the Greek and Hebrew in a long time. My understanding is that Lucifer=light bearer and morning star in Latin.

I am no Bible scholar nor intellectual. When I was a new christian I lived and breathed the Bible for 5 years or so and since then have for the most part neglected it for a number of years. This little piece I wrote is just an attempt to start studying God's word in depth again. So I thank you for taking your valuable time reading it and especially replying to it!

I honestly don't know anything about the interpreter's notes. I'm quite sure I would much rather read KJV interpreter's notes than the NIV interpreter's notes. Once I was convinced in my mind that the KJV is God's Word and the other versions were not, I never studied any other version again and I didn't continue studying the Bible version issue, either .

The way I see it is that God, not the translators, preserved His Word perfectly in the King James Bible. Their notes are runner's up, they didn't win the contest. There are probably hundreds of facts and points of view to consider in order to come to a fairly complete understanding of just this one little issue with this one piece of one verse; yet,why would God call Jesus and Lucifer/Satan by the same appellations?

Aloha sister greenbear,

You would be wise to ignore Ed Edwards - he's a TROLL of the worst kind. It's always QUESTIONS & DOUBT! QUESTIONS & DOUBT! I wouldn't waste one minute of my time on such braggart and trouble-maker, and I doubt that he will be here much longer after these last obnoxious Posts.

There are a lot of fine brothers and sisters in the Lord here - Ed Edwards is NOT one of them!

Proverbs 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

[greenbear]

Originally Posted by Ed Edwards

Tee Hee

Your worse nightmare come true - a person who can prove the KJVs are inerrant, perfect, without flaw, preserved for their generation, etc.

And dangerous, I can teach Man's Logic, which is a subset of God's Logic (a very tiny subset, I might add); I can teach Salvation (since 1952) - 57 years; I can teach Bible (since 1957 - 52 years / 1975-1957 - the the KJV only for 18 years) I blow in-again-out-again-finigan salvation out of the water; I can blow the pre-tribulation rapture socks off LaHaye, Jeffery, and etc.; I was called to be a ON-LINE Bible apologist in June 1984 - 25 year anniversary coming up. Say, I aught to have a Big Anniversary party, except I don't remember the day. Actually I posted on my first post on a public bulletin board on day one and it was day 13 before I could post the second post?

[sorry, I do admit the Lord is still working on me about enhancing my humility]

What was every body else doing 25 years ago?

Second Ed's insight on the 'Lucifer' problem:

1. Even if 'day star' is the best translation here, it would be no problem. Obviously (Scofield is right) whoever is being talked about in Isaiah 14:12 is probably directly Nebo-..., the King of Babylon. But obviously Satan (a title, not a name), the Lead Devil (a title, not a name) is by type being mentioned here, indirectly, of course.

2. The 'day star', 'Morning Star', and 'Evening Star' can refer to the planet (not star) Venus in different manifestations. The 'Morning Star' designation is probably most meaningful here. The metaphor of Satan (by type) being a false Morning Start means that Satan is the false 'dawn' that precedes the true Dawn (we know now as Jesus). Jesus is compared by Peter and John is a metaphor for Jesus as the true 'predecessor' of the true sun: God Himself.

BTW 'day star' is NOT a star, it referrs to a planet. So the Hebrew Word for 'star' is not needed here at all.

It's obvious you're extremely intelligent and knowledgeable. Not sure how my humble little study garnered your attention but glad for it.

The passage is obviously a double reference to King of Babylon and Lucifer. I disagree that if 'day star' is the best translation here it is no problem. By verse 9 and definitely by vs 12 it's clear Lucifer is being addressed, not KoB. You're wrong, IMHO, in saying it is no problem.

I like your insight 2 up to a point. of course there's Christ versus anti-christ but they are not the exact same names like 'morning star' being used for both Christ and Lucifer.

Maybe others don't? but I hope you post again.

[Jassy]

Why must we "break down" the original words in the perfect KJV and get them "translated" by other corrupt versions? The reason this is done is because Satan (aka: Lucifer) is always attempting to COUNTERFEIT Jesus Christ. He wants to be the perfect counterpart of Jesus Christ so that he can palm-off himself as the "LIGHT." He may be "a" light - but he's a FALSE light. The only TRUE Light source is Jesus Christ! Remember that in holy city, new Jersalem, what LIGHT is described there?

Revelation 21:23 - "And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof."

Revelation 22:5 - "And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever."

[greenbear]

Originally Posted by George

Aloha sister greenbear,

You would be wise to ignore Ed Edwards - he's a TROLL of the worst kind. It's always QUESTIONS & DOUBT! QUESTIONS & DOUBT! I wouldn't waste one minute of my time on such braggart and trouble-maker, and I doubt that he will be here much longer after these last obnoxious Posts.

There are a lot of fine brothers and sisters in the Lord here - Ed Edwards is NOT one of them!

Proverbs 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

Brother George- Thanks for the warning but I already know what Ed is. I'm pretty rusty with the Bible but I know the Lord and am way past any doubts about the KJV being the Word of God. I'm also familiar with Satan's tricks and he don't have no new ones in 6000 years.

As for encouraging Ed to keep posting, I just like to have my beliefs challenged so I'm forced to consider and defend my positions. I could probably do that on other sites, though.

[greenbear]

Originally Posted by Jassy

Why must we "break down" the original words in the perfect KJV and get them "translated" by other corrupt versions? The reason this is done is because Satan (aka: Lucifer) is always attempting to COUNTERFEIT Jesus Christ. He wants to be the perfect counterpart of Jesus Christ so that he can palm-off himself as the "LIGHT." He may be "a" light - but he's a FALSE light. The only TRUE Light source is Jesus Christ! Remember that in holy city, new Jersalem, what LIGHT is described there?

Revelation 21:23 - "And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof."

Revelation 22:5 - "And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever."

Amen, Jassy. Jesus is the true Light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world. Jesus does not share any of His names with Lucifer.