[Mathew Ward]

Originally Posted by CKG

The basis of our fellowship is not just the gospel.

That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. (1 John 1:3)

I can have a certain amount of fellowship with someone who uses a version other than the KJV, but it can only go so far because the main point of our fellowship "is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ" and his version attacks the person and work of our Lord Jesus as presented in his true word, the KJV
[/INDENT]

The only way to have fellowship with the Father is by the salvation provided by the Son. 1 John 1:3 who promote the fellowship of believers along with the love of the brethren, would it not?

If his version attacks the person and work of Christ would not your issue be more with the translators of said version? Why would you try and withhold your fellowship from a fellow believer who Christ died for as well as yourself and has provided the both of you fellowship with the Father?

[Mathew Ward]

Originally Posted by George;20334I will NOT fellowship with ANYONE who is called a "Christian"[I

,[/I] who ADDS; SUBTRACTS; or CHANGES the Holy words of God as found in the King James Bible;

I think you mean who changes it in a way that is unacceptable to you?

Because I am sure that when you or your Pastor get up to preach the Bible, you just don't read from it and then sit down? I am sure to take the time to convey the truth and explain in in a way that your audience will understand.

For example, I preached this Sunday night from Ephesians 4:11-16 and in verse 12 "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:" I explained how this perfecting carries the meaning of well-rounded or mature. In the strictest application of your statement I have changed or added to the Word of God, have I not?

Since our fellowship is around the Word of God, with salvation being the starting point, you have drawn the line that you both must have the same Bible. But if the Bible they have is 50% the Word of God, why is it that you could not fellowship on that 50% and be a blessing and an encouragement to a fellow brother in Christ?

If I liken the Bible Version Issue (maybe a new thread) to a Liberty in Christ Issue (Romans 14). Who would you say is the stronger brother and who would you say is the weaker brother on the Bible Issue?

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by Mathew Ward

If I liken the Bible Version Issue (maybe a new thread) to a Liberty in Christ Issue (Romans 14). Who would you say is the stronger brother and who would you say is the weaker brother on the Bible Issue?

Here's the real problem, then. A Christian is not at liberty to correct or otherwise sit in judgment of God's word. A Christian is not at liberty to preach to people that God's words are not pure or preserved. Yes, they are still Christians, but this is not a liberty issue. This is a TRUTH issue. The Christian has no liberty to utter "Yea, hath God said?" as the serpent did.

Hair, music, movies, wine, etc, are liberty issues. This just ain't.

[George]

Originally Posted by Mathew Ward

"I think you mean who changes it in a way that is unacceptable to you?

Because I am sure that when you or your Pastor get up to preach the Bible, you just don't read from it and then sit down? I am sure to take the time to convey the truth and explain in in a way that your audience will understand.

For example, I preached this Sunday night from Ephesians 4:11-16 and in verse 12 "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:" I explained how this perfecting carries the meaning of well-rounded or mature. In the strictest application of your statement I have changed or added to the Word of God, have I not?

Since our fellowship is around the Word of God, with salvation being the starting point, you have drawn the line that you both must have the same Bible. But if the Bible they have is 50% the Word of God, why is it that you could not fellowship on that 50% and be a blessing and an encouragement to a fellow brother in Christ?

If I liken the Bible Version Issue (maybe a new thread) to a Liberty in Christ Issue (Romans 14). Who would you say is the stronger brother and who would you say is the weaker brother on the Bible Issue ?"

Aloha brother Matthew,

WHY are you trying to "figure out" WHAT I "MEAN", when WHAT I HAVE SAID (MY "WORDS") should be clear enough (without "reading into it" WHAT I might possibly "MEAN").?

You still don't get it, and I don't know how much more "plain" or "clear" I can make it! And not only that, but you are now getting awfully close to "straining at gnats" with:
Matthew's quote:

"For example, I preached this Sunday night from Ephesians 4:11-16 and in verse 12 "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:" I explained how this perfecting carries the meaning of well-rounded or mature. In the strictest application of your statement I have changed or added to the Word of God, have I not?"

When preaching the word or teaching the word it is perfectly OK to "expound" on it, but it is NOT O.K. to say: "the King James Bible is in ERROR here, and a better reading would be" {that's = "CHANGING"}; it is NOT O.K. to REMOVE the words - God, Spirit, Lord, Christ, Jesus, the Son, firstborn, begotten, blood, repentance, propitiation, Satan, prophet, study, science, hypocrites, etc. or the hundreds of other words and verses removed from the TEXT of the King James Bible {that's = "SUBTRACTING"}. Must I explain" what I mean by "ADDING" to the "TEXT" of the King James Bible also? Your points are getting mighty close to being disingenuous.

You can't possibly be that obtuse not to understand that "expounding" on the Holy words of God is NOT the SAME as ADDING TO, or SUBTRACTING FROM or CHANGING (in anyway) the "TEXT" of the King James Bible! When I say "you don't get it", it's obvious that you don't, by your statement:

"Since our fellowship is around the Word of God, with salvation being the starting point, you have drawn the line that you both must have the same Bible."

Again. you are trying to "put words in my mouth" which I did NOT say! Read WHAT I HAVE SAID:

"I can "fellowship" with Christians that do not believe as I do about the King James Bible - I CANNOT "fellowship" with those "Christians" who SUBTRACT from it; or ADD to it; or CHANGE it. And I especially want NOTHING TO DO with those "Christians" who will ATTACK it; RIDICULE it; and MALIGN it."

"I don't know HOW I can be much clearer. I DRAW THE LINE with Bible "Correctors", "Deniers", or anyone else who "claims" to be a "Christian", but WHO "ADDS", "SUBTRACTS", "CHANGES", "MALIGNS", OR "RIDICULES" the HOLY Bible. (Do you do any of those things? NOT by your testimony & conduct here!)"

"Since March of last year (2008) I have posted nearly 750 Posts on the AV1611 Forums. I have NEVER said, nor would I ever say, that "we can only walk with those we agree 100%". I can have fellowship (around the Lord Jesus Christ & His Holy word) with "all-kinds" of Christians (I'm far more "tolerant" of Christians troubled by "the sins of the flesh", or of Christians that hold to "discordant doctrines" (NOT "heresies") than most of the Christians I have met in the 50 years I have been a blood bought child of God)."

"But I do "DRAW LINES". I will NOT "fellowship" with a out & out "Heretick"; I will NOT fellowship with ANYONE who is called a "Christian", who ADDS; SUBTRACTS; or CHANGES the Holy words of God as found in the King James Bible; I will NOT "fellowship" with ANYONE who viciously attacks, maligns, or ridicules the King James Bible; nor will I "fellowship" with ANYONE who viciously attacks, maligns, or ridicules King James Bible believers."

Now, I don't know how much more "plain" or how much clearer I can put it, but here goes (for the last time): I can "fellowship" (around the word of God) with you or practically any other Christian that may not believe as I do about the King James Bible. If, at any time, you, or any other "Christian" ADDS TO; SUBTRACTS FROM; or CHANGES the "words" in the "TEXT" of the HOLY Bible that will "END" our "fellowship" - NO IF's - AND's - or BUT's.

Nothing you say or do will CHANGE my heart or mind on this issue. If a person wants to "fellowship" with me it will have to be "fellowship" around the Holy word of God. If they want to put "conditions" on that "fellowship" such as if they ONLY want to CHANGE 10% (or 1%) of God's Holy words; or they ONLY want to ADD 10% (or 1%) to God's Holy words; or they ONLY want to SUBTRACT 10% (or 1%) from God's Holy words - that's a "game breaker" for me. That's the end of our "fellowship" because: "A LITTLE LEAVEN {STILL} LEAVENETH THE WHOLE LUMP"! [Galatians 5:9]{At least that's what it STILL says in my Bible!}

Front of The Bible:

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Middle of The Bible:

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.


End of The Bible:

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

There can be no doubt as to the "meaning" of these WARNINGS! ! !

Man is commanded NOT to:

#1 ADD to the WORDS OF GOD!

#2 SUBTRACT from the WORDS OF GOD!

#3 CHANGE the WORDS OF GOD!

When someone messes with God's Holy words they are playing with FIRE!

I believe that God say what he means, and means what He says: “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? (Numbers 23:19) We must diligently observe His WARNINGS and faithfully obey His Commands concerning HIS WORDS.

LOL, well George that sure seems clear to me brother.

Let's see if I can toss in a few more thoughts for Matthew to chew on...

Originally Posted by Mathew Ward

Why is then people look to what they disagree about more then what they agree on?

If we can agree on salvation we should be able to walk together, should we not?

If we can agree that the message of salvation needs to be taken into all the world and preached to everyone we should be able to walk together, should we not?

Matthew, I think this is a fair question you are asking so I will respond (again). Let me ask you, how do you determine exactly WHAT SALVATION IS? How do you determine WHO JESUS IS? How do you determine WHO GOD IS? What is your FINAL AUTHORITY or spiritual matters? You see for us, I think the Word of God is seen as ESSENTIAL TO SALVATION. Our revelation from God is our key to understanding Him and His plan for our lives.

Originally Posted by Mathew Ward

If we can only walk with those we agree 100% on, then it will be one lonely walk. Because I do not know anyone I agree 100% on every Bible doctine, do you?

Depends on the doctrine and the attitude of the person. Some Bible doctrines are very delicate, and without the proper AUTHORITY, they cannot be grasped.

Suppose I said to you, yes yes I agree that "salvation is not of works"... and you agreed with me.

but then I came back and said, "but the blood of Christ has nothing to do with salvation."

How would you teach me the truth? And if I was stubborn and told you, no no the blood of Christ is of no use, would you still have fellowship because we agreed that salvation is not of works? It's all nice to sing Kumbaya and hold hands in "fellowship," but is that fellowship based on truth?

Like I told you earlier, if we cannot agree on WHICH BIBLE, then we cannot agree on WHAT IS TRUTH. And that is serious business.

[CKG]

Originally Posted by Mathew Ward

The only way to have fellowship with the Father is by the salvation provided by the Son. 1 John 1:3 who promote the fellowship of believers along with the love of the brethren, would it not?

If his version attacks the person and work of Christ would not your issue be more with the translators of said version? Why would you try and withhold your fellowship from a fellow believer who Christ died for as well as yourself and has provided the both of you fellowship with the Father?

The Bible says "truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ." (1 John 1:3)

If a person points out that "He" and not "God" was manifest in the flesh (I Timothy 3:16) or "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." (1 John 5:7) should not be in the Bible because it was added in later on (as a Baptist preacher once told me); is not that person siding with "said version" against the KJV? I can't talk to the translators who aren't there (and many have died), but I can talk to that person who is there before me who is using "said version". First of all I'm not going to get up and walk off. I'm going to explain why those verses are correct as they are written in the KJV and I will ask that person to explain why they are choosing the words of "said version" over the KJV. Different things can happen. Maybe the person is not aware of the Bible version issue. Maybe the person is not aware and doesn't want to be aware of the Bible version issue. Maybe the person believes their version or all versions are God's perfect word. Whatever the case I will try and engage them in some meaningful dialogue about Bible version issue. If that person refuses the truth; I won't hate them or look down on them and I will try to be a friend, but the friendship or fellowship will not be the same because that person is knowingly taking the words of a counterfeit Bible that casts doubt on the person, work, and deity of Jesus Christ.

[George]

Originally Posted by CKG

The Bible says "truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ." (1 John 1:3)

If a person points out that "He" and not "God" was manifest in the flesh (I Timothy 3:16) or "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." (1 John 5:7) should not be in the Bible because it was added in later on (as a Baptist preacher once told me); is not that person siding with "said version" against the KJV? I can't talk to the translators who aren't there (and many have died), but I can talk to that person who is there before me who is using "said version". First of all I'm not going to get up and walk off. I'm going to explain why those verses are correct as they are written in the KJV and I will ask that person to explain why they are choosing the words of "said version" over the KJV. Different things can happen. Maybe the person is not aware of the Bible version issue. Maybe the person is not aware and doesn't want to be aware of the Bible version issue. Maybe the person believes their version or all versions are God's perfect word. Whatever the case I will try and engage them in some meaningful dialogue about Bible version issue. If that person refuses the truth; I won't hate them or look down on them and I will try to be a friend, but the friendship or fellowship will not be the same because that person is knowingly taking the words of a counterfeit Bible that casts doubt on the person, work, and deity of Jesus Christ.

Aloha brother CKG,

Just to set the record straight: Unless I perceive that someone is an outright King James Bible hater, I will try to "reason" with them. (Like I have tried with brother Matthew) But there comes a time (discernment) when "reasoning" must cease. After dealing with Christians for over 40 years about the issue of "Which Bible" I have learned WHEN that time has come (discernment) - and it is not always the same, it differs with the person and circumstances.

We cannot spend all of our time trying to "convince" Christians about the status of the King James Bible if they are unwilling to listen; or if they refuse to research the issue on their own; or if refuse to believe that God could have PRESERVED his Holy words in a single Book. At some point we just have to leave it up to God, because further appeals, arguments, and "reasoning" will only amount to "an exercise in futility" - where no edification takes place and where there is no "spiritual profit".

As long as Christians don't malign, ridicule, or denigrate the King James Bible, I have no "problem" with them - although it is difficult being "close friends" with such a Christian, because, after all, our "fellowship with God the Father and with His Son MUST be around His Holy word.

There is another "facet" to this issue, and that is the "Christian" who "poses" QUESTIONS - ALWAYS QUESTIONS! Normally these "Christians" are extremely "intelligent"; highly "educated"; (schooled) and they operate in such a manner that raises a "red flag" with me. They always "seem" to be so "sweet" and "polite", they never losing their "cool", but if you examine the way they conduct themselves you will detect GUILE; CUNNING; DECEIT; SUBTLETY; DISINGENUOUSNESS; DECEPTION; DUPLICITY; and DISSIMULATION!

When I "detect" (discernment) I am dealing with such a person, I immediately reprove or rebuke them and then AVOID THEM - like the plague. These kinds of "Christians" are just as bad (or perhaps even worse) than those "Christians" that are openly hostile to the King James Bible. The reason being, that while we can easily discern the "agenda" of those "Christians" that openly attack our Bible, it is much harder to "discern" the "clever" and "deceptive agenda" these "Posers" have - and that is to UNDERMINE the AUTHORITY of the King James Bible in a believers life!

The "Scribes", "Pharisees", and "Sadducees" didn't die off or disappear with the destruction of Israel in 70 A.D.! They are still with us today; and most of them are matriculating in the "Christian" Schools & Colleges in the U.S.A.

I have listed the Bible verses of WARNING against these people and their nefarious ways many times on this Forum. We must always be "on guard" against LEAVEN - whether it be in the form of a false & heretical doctrine [Galatians 5:9] or whether it be person [1 Corinthians 5:6-7] i.e. a "false brethren"; a "wolf in sheep's clothing"; or a "Christian" whose mind has been "corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ".

Paul spent the better part of three years exhorting ("night and day with tears") the brethren to WATCH; and REMEMBER - WARNING them of the "creeping apostasy" that was taking place within the church and amongst the LEADERS (i.e. pastors/elders)

Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,
19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

I take no pleasure in contending with those "Christians" (I grow weary of it all) who come here either to draw disciples away after themselves; or who, since they have NO FINAL AUTHORITY themselves, seek to UNDERMINE the faith of those Christians who look to the King James Bible as their FINAL AUTHORITY in all matters of faith and practice.

I do not "hate" these people, but I will NOT stand by and see them try to turn this Forum into a "college debating society" - or worse! I seek no man's silver or gold; and I am not looking for a "following" - what I do seek for, is that all of the brethren on this Forum would be edified (that we might edify one another); that they would be warned; and that we might experience true Christian "fellowship" with each other as we "fellowship" with God the Father, and with His Son; and that that "fellowship" would be around the Holy words of God found in the King James Bible and NOT the words of men.

Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.

[Mathew Ward]

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

What is your FINAL AUTHORITY or spiritual matters?

The Word of God is the final authority on spiritual matters.

Originally Posted by Mathew Ward

The Word of God is the final authority on spiritual matters.

Yes, well I hope we can agree on that brother, and I hope we can agree what constitutes the Word of God. I can appreciate that you "read from the KJV" and have done so since you were a child.

Looking at your blog today, you seem to have the opinion that multiple versions contain the Word of God, and that because the MV’ers have the oldest manuscripts (MSS) and "them believing that the oldest MSS are the best MSS," that this is a "VERY VALID ARGUMENT."

I think the general consensus on THIS forum is that the multiple versions on the market today are a distraction at best and a dangerous ploy of the Devil at worst, and the multiple versions used by those "qualified, well meaning men" who use them constantly 24/7/365 days a year to correct, attack and confuse the message of your INERRANT Bible, are doing great damage to the cause of Christ.

Anyone who listens to Christian radio or attends a liberal church will see that there are men who CONSTANTLY seek to put themselves and their "scholarship" and their latest "version" ABOVE THE KJV.

The publisher of the NIV has sold more than 215 million copies worldwide, and this is only one extremely corrupt example which has caused considerable confusion worldwide—removing the word "begotten" from John 3:16, says that Jesus couldn't grasp equality with God in Philippians 2:6, removes the name "Jesus" in 38 places, completely removes the word "Godhead" from the Bible, completely removes the word "sodomite" from the Bible, removes the word "hell" 40 times, and changes EVERY MENTION of people "worshipping" Jesus to a mere "knelt."

Clearly there is more going on here than "competing scholarship," and some of us have been watching it for a long time.

By the way is that your son? he's a fine looking boy, I know you must be thankful for such a beautiful family brother. God bless you as you continue in His Word...

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

Yes, well I think we can agree on this to a point, I actually made a post about it here a while back, let me know if you want it and I'll find it for you. As for the banning, you'll have to take that up with the owner of the site, because I never banned any of them. However I must admit I have been relieved to see some of the trouble makers get canned. Plenty of other forums for spreading leaven and arguing.



Eh??? Let me read your post again; are you saying that because Brandon chooses to ban people he is a "Pharisaic separationist" and that's why you're not a Baptist? LOL, whatever... here's what I think; we all know the reason you will never be a Baptist has a lot more to do with doctrine than it does Ruckman or any forum. And you seem to be stereotyping all Baptists as bloodcurdling Pharisees, which I assure you is not the case. At any rate, WHO CARES if you are a Baptist or not? Certainly not me, so why bring it up? Unless you simply have a problem with Baptists... At any rate, your post is quite peculiar.



Well maybe I can comfort you a little. Actually I have no "objection" with quoting or referencing scripture at all, (I often do this myself) UNLESS it being done to spread false teachings. Don't forget—cults do it all the time, and some of them use the KJV same as us! (2 Pet. 3:14-16)

Brother, my response is not peculiar at all. If I had an objection to anyone being a Baptist, I would not be in this forum. Here I am, a dissenter to one of the fundamentals of IFB faith and practice, "following the Lord in believer's baptism", yet I feel welcome as a fellowsoldier by the webmaster and the other members, you included. I don't feel a whit behind any Christian in this forum, and hope I have reciprocated in that though we disagree on water baptism, not a single one of you is behind me in knowledge and faith.

This is my problem and not yours but I find it a bit disquieting to say "you can quote all the Scripture you want BUT..." I'm not speaking for Matthew, he is quite able to speak for himself without me, Matthew's quotation of Romans 14 was not to support the anti-KJV position, but a commentary on Christian practice between Christians. It was between you and him. But you did the same thing to me in the water baptism thread and then said not to even address you over there anymore on the topic of the thread. It's my personal opinion you don't have any Scripture to counter my position over there and it's fallen upon poor brother George to bell the cat with me over there, the church splittin' dry cleaner, and I am smiling saying that. I call that a peeky-boo defense, like a boxer. I think we need Scripture to back what we feel is sound doctrine is all. I understand your position with false teachers, but you don't say to a JW well, it don't matter how much Scripture you quote, Jesus Christ is God! He won't believe you. Jesus didn't say that to Satan in Matt. 4. He gave Scripture to counter him. That's all I ask. I've been trained to resist interrogation by torture, what someone says of their own opinion just bounces off me. What I do not resist is Scripture. Don't think for an instant I am persecuting Baptists. I rail just as fervently against the anti-evangelism of the Stamite teachings which is rooted in Calvinism and their rejection of there being an inspired Bible as I do the needless practice of water baptism as an "ordinance". Perhaps I am misunderstanding you in this statement I find disquieting, maybe it was worded wrong, a strict reading of what you said defines me and Matthew Ward as false teachers, we quoted Scripture to you, you objected to it on that count.

Brother, you and I are united in the clasp of the right hand of fellowship, and you are the one that has to let go.

Grace and peace to you brother Parrish

Tony