[chette777]

Mind and Body,

George was in no wise being Hostile or furious. you interpret that with your own heart. be careful in accusing brethren of certain actions that you cannot verify with your eyes and ears. writing lacks human emotion, eye to eye contact, intonation of speech, body language and many other points that convey certain moods and emotions. George conveyed only frustration with the way you asked questions and the way you would not accept the answers many thought you were seeking.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

Mind and Body, don't take it personal.
You asked a good question and I think everyone has tried to answer in their own way. The doctrine of Biblical repentance is important and I'm glad we have the opportunity to discuss it.

I agree with Bro. Parrish, don't mistake a fervent love for God and the Scriptures as being hostile. I'm one of the most intense people you ever want to meet as evidenced by my membership at "FFF".

MAB, brother George is a valuable asset to us and this forum, just as you are. Roman Catholics are no better, nor any worse, than any other sinner that needs Christ. Many of us are zealous, yes, but not hostile. You, me, all of us are part of One Body but many members, we are all individuals and have different personalities but you and all of us are united in the ONLY THING you can unite more than 2 human beings on in a true manner: The Gospel Of Christ.

Look in the Scriptures at the "firstborn". Always the firstborn falls short of the mark except for One: He Who is Firstborn from the dead. Cain, Ishmael, Esau. Look at God's firstborn son, the nation of Israel. Then look for the counterfeits for everything that is of God. Look at Jesus and Satan's conversation in Luke 4 and how Satan tried to back his deceit with Scripture and Christ's answer to Him: It is written. There is always a phony for what is True. The Jews have the Torah, and then the "Talmud", the opinions of the self-righteous "rabbis" that adds to the word of God. Look at Judaism and it's counterfeit, Islam. The True Christian Body of Christ has a counterfeit: Roman Catholicism. They all, each and every one of them stand one micron from the truth of the power of God unto salvation. That micron may as well be as wide as the boundaries of the Universe. That's how far Mormon's, Catholics, JWs, Church Of Christ, or the worst barfly sinner you can find is from the Presence of Christ.

My little town has become so inundated with Mexicans the local Catholic Church has tore down the old church to the foundations and rebuilt one larger. I'm going to dedicate myself to making that construction worthless. I want to see that church empty now, looking through a glass darkly, but then face to face with Christ I want to see the former members of it in heaven with me and all of us in this forum.

Grace and peace my friend.

Tony

[Fredoheaven]

What about repentance in sackloth and ashes (Matthew 11:21)? What is meant by this? Can we still practice this as David did and others?



Jude 25

What is meant by it? That's a good question...
Well, as an outward show of deep sorrow in the Hebrew culture, they used to wear these scratchy, itchy garments made out of rough material or animal hair, called a CILICE. The word is pronounced SILL-iss, and this is also called SACKCLOTH. It was meant to be an outward symbol of deep humility--- like wearing a public sign that said,

"YES I BLEW IT, I AM AN IDIOT, FORGIVE ME."

"And it came to pass, when Ahab heard those words, that he rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his flesh, and fasted, and lay in sackcloth, and went softly. And the word of the LORD came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying, Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? because he humbleth himself before me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son's days will I bring the evil upon his house." - 1 Kings 21:27-29

Sometimes entire groups and communities would wear these garments to show despair and sorrow... in this case, it would be like everyone wearing signs that said,

"WE ARE VERY UPSET AND IN MOURNING."

"When Mordecai perceived all that was done, Mordecai rent his clothes, and put on sackcloth with ashes, and went out into the midst of the city, and cried with a loud and a bitter cry. And came even before the king's gate: for none might enter into the king's gate clothed with sackcloth. And in every province, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came, there was great mourning among the Jews, and fasting, and weeping, and wailing; and many lay in sackcloth and ashes." Esth. 4:1

Fredoheaven; I think if you did that in public in our culture here today people would simply think you were strange and you might cause harm to the cause of Christ because people might think you a lunatic. On the other hand, if you were very upset about something you did and wanted to wear itchy clothes in private, hey go for it---I'm not going to criticize you for it. Personally, I prefer to simply pray and seek forgiveness, now that we have an advocate with the Father...

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." - 1 John 2:1-2

"Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." Heb. 4:16

Strange but true; some Catholics down through the ages (Opus Dei) have taken this self-punishment to a whole new level (mortification) by wearing a METAL CILICE, with nasty little spikes on the inside to cause extra discomfort and pain for themselves. Ouch.

[George]

Originally Posted by Fredoheaven

What about repentance in sackloth and ashes (Matthew 11:21)? What is meant by this? Can we still practice this as David did and others?



Jude 25

Aloha brother Fredoheaven,

The Roman Catholics "think" that they can DO something (in the flesh) that will be pleasing to God. They CANT' And neither can we!

[Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.]

God wants and expects "FRUIT" {love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance [Galatians 5:22-23]} in our lives. IF we have FRUIT - WORKS will follow.

Please notice the words describing "fruit" in the Bible: Our HEART bears (or produces) "FRUIT" - NOT our FLESH! Most Catholics (and many Christians) "think" that if they DO "something" (good "works", or self-induced "suffering" of some sort) in the flesh that they are "pleasing" God - it's impossible to please God in the flesh!

If Christians concentrates on "bearing FRUIT", God can "WORK" through them. If a Catholic (or a Christian) concentrates on producing "WORKS" (absent "fruit") they will end up "thinking" that they are pleasing God when they "punish themselves" or OTHERS!

But they are greatly mistaken, since the "testimony" of Scripture is that real, genuine fruit is always:

Ephesians 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth)

If a person's "WORKS" don't line up with the preceding verse, then you know that there is a LACK OF FRUIT in their lives, and that their "works" are NOT pleasing to God!

[Winman]

I agree with Brother George, we can do nothing in the flesh that pleases God. And God does not save us because we turn from sin. Before you can please God, you must come to Him in faith first.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


Hebrews Chapter 11 tells of many who first had faith in God, and then acted according to this faith. But faith is always mentioned first.

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.


You can do all the good works you want, or promise to quit sinning and God will not be pleased.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

We need to realize we are lost sinners and that nothing we can do will please God. Only when we repent of depending on our own righteousness, and depend upon Jesus Christ can our sins be forgiven.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Now, once we receive Christ and the Holy Spirit, then we please God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Only after being born again, and becoming a new creature can we do good works pleasing to God.

The works a man performs before coming to Christ do not give glory to Christ. They are done in self-righteousness. But when we receive Christ and have his law written in our hearts, then we out of love and gratitude (not fear) obey Christ.

John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Israel tried to please God in the flesh, but was not accepted of God.

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Nothing you can do in the flesh will EVER please God. First, you must come just as you are, a sinner, to Jesus Christ in faith. Then, and only then can you begin to please God.

Originally Posted by George

Aloha brother Fredoheaven,

The Roman Catholics "think" that they can DO something (in the flesh) that will be pleasing to God. They CAN'T And neither can we!

George that is a great truth, and this also extends to other pagan religions of the world ...
a casual review of online resources reveals that...

1. On the day of Ashura some devotees whip their own backs with bunched knives known as zanjirs; others beat their chests rhythmically with their hands. See link here (CAUTION this is graphic):
http://eye-on-the-world.blogspot.com...ation-and.html

2. Just last year a Shia Muslim was found guilty of child cruelty because he made two teenage boys take part in a self-flagellation ritual using a whip made of knife blades. Syed Mustafa Zaidi's defence was that this is a traditional ceremony commemorating the death of Hussein, Muhammad's grandson, at the massacre of Karbala in AD680.

3. In the Hindu festival of Thaipusam a ritual known as kavadi is performed. It ranges from carrying heavy weights uphill to piercing the body, face and tongue with skewers, or dangling from meat hooks passed through the back and legs. “The greater the pain,” one text says, “the greater the god-earned merit.”

4. In the festival for the goddess Draupathi believers walk on red-hot coals as an act of devotion or penance.

5. In Catholic circles, Saint Francis of Assisi, who is said to have received the stigmata, painful wounds like those of Jesus Christ, asked pardon to his body for the severe self-afflicted penances he had done: vigils, fasts, frequent flagellations and the use of a hairshirt (sackcloth).

6. In the second millennium, St. Dominic Loricatus is said to have performed 'One Hundred Years Penance' by chanting 20 psalters accompanied by 300,000 lashes over six days.

7. In the sixteenth century, Saint Thomas More, the Lord Chancellor of England, wore a hairshirt, deliberately mortifying his body. He also used the 'discipline.' Also, in the sixteenth century Catherine of Aragon, Queen of England wore a hairshirt.

8. Saint Ignatius of Loyola while in Manresa in 1522 is known to have practiced severe mortifications. In the Litany prayers to Saint Ignatius he is praised as being “constant in the practice of corporal penance.” He wore a hair shirt and heavy iron chain.... it goes on and on.

I am reminded of the great message from our King James Bible...

"The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." -- Psalm 51:17

[George]

Re: "Do Roman Catholics Go To Hell? "

Originally Posted by Mind and Body

Holy cow, George...I'm not a Catholic. Never have been, never will be...you did well when you chastised me with Scripture. O.K. but you have no reason to be so hostile! You act downright furious and I don't understand why...

Mind and Body,

{"Holy Cow?" Where does that come from - Chapter & Verse?}

You say that you're "not a Catholic", sooo the question arises: WHY do you have so many Roman Catholic "concepts" of "Christianity" in general, and Christian Doctrine in particular?

In my last Post to you I stated:

"Your last Post gives rise to many questions (about you - why are today's Christians sooo "touchy" and ""sensitive"?): First, because of your inane and juvenile “response” to brother Steve Monahan's (POTW) Post #2 <> Your Thread; and second (and more importantly) because you completely “IGNORED” everything that he said."

I said that "you completely IGNORED everything that he (brother Steve Monahan) said"; if you will notice, in keeping with your modus operandi, you COMPLETELY IGNORED every single "point" I made in my Post ALSO!

If you think that my Post is "hostile" and that I am acting "furious" then you have no idea as to what true "HOSTILITY" and "FURY" IS!

Today's Christians are sooo super "sensitive". that they all expect the rest of us to be a bunch of "politically correct pacifistic wimps" - saying nothing that may upset their "sensitivities". After raising seven children, I learned long ago - if the truth hurts, so be it. [Galatians 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?]

Since you haven't answered any of the points brought up by brother Steve or myself, you may rest assured that you will not receive any more "hostile" Posts from myself, unless of course, you start spouting off clear heresy, etc.

[Mind and Body]

Quit knit-picking, George. The "Holy" in "holy cow!" is lowercase, capitalized only because it was at the beginning of the sentence. You are just being ignorant if you try to act as if I was insinuating that any cow is Holy. You for some reason don't like me, even though I have no objections to your response to my posts (other than your hostility), so I should have known that you would find anything to yip at me about. I'll leave if you want me to.

[Winman]

Mind and Body

Actually, saying things like "holy cow" is much worse than you might think. I am not being judgemental here, I have used words like this many times, but I try to be very careful not to do so anymore. It is pretty easy to use phrases like this, because we hear them so much day to day.

But sayings like this are actually blasphemy. The definition of blasphemy is:

1) slander, detraction, speech injurious, to another's good name

2) impious and reproachful speech injurious to divine majesty

Now, #1 is easy. We all know to speak evil of God is blasphemy. But the phrase you used would come under #2.

There is only one who is Holy, and that is God.

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Matt 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Only God is holy, perfect, and without sin. And to call a cow or any other thing holy is actually disrespectful and irreverent. The word Holy applies to only one, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ who died to pay our sins.

Like I said, not judging you, just giving you something to think about.

From what I read, George is simply asking you to repsond to questions and points himself and Steve Monohan brought up.

And I am not defending Brother George, I am new here and don't really know him, although I enjoy reading many of his posts. I don't see him as hostile, I see him as someone who takes the scriptures very seriously, and that is a GOOD thing.

Years ago when I went to college we had a real no-nonsense professor. He was tough, and he had us all intimidated. He told you something once, and you better be paying attention, he did not repeat himself. When he told you to write something down, you better write it quick, because it was coming down and something new was coming up. We probably covered 2 to 3 times as much material in that class than we did in any others, he pushed you right along. There was no talking or goofing off in that class.

By the way, this professor had been a drill sergeant in the Marine Corps. It showed.

Anyway, I remember the end of the year. To our surprise he told us all that we were great students and that he was priviliged to teach us. He almost had tears in his eyes. It was shocking, coming from this man of stone.

So, do not mistake someone being zealous and serious as being hostile or cold-hearted.