[Biblestudent]

Brother George, thanks for asking that question for me!

Brother tonybones 2112, I seem to agree with some of your "disagreements", but I disagree with you concerning the beginning of the Body of Christ and with your "drycleaning" conclusion.

I would like to ask two more questions:
1. Wasn't Christ made HEAD of the church, which is his body, at the Ascension? (Ephesians 1:22,23) If so, then the body has to be at least begin AFTER that.
2. Also, if water baptism is a sign (and signs are for the benefit of the Jew), then why did Paul baptize Gentiles even without one Jew present (as in Acts 16)?
This viewpoint may also vary from most of the brethren's in this forum, but have you ever considered that Paul's water baptism is different from that of John the Baptist's and Peter's in mode and meaning?

I don't see water baptism as a sign or a law only for the Jew (the word "baptism" being absent in the KJV OT). So, instead of doing away water baptism, I "rightly divide" the different baptisms, such as, Peter's vs. Paul's.
That is, I observe the "ordinancES" (plural, at least two) AS PAUL delivered it (1 Cor. 11:2), and not observe the "ordinances" which is CONTRARY to us (Col. 2:14-16).

Concerning your experience being an "outcast", I suffered the same thing with my fellow IFB's and "Ruckmanites". The two groups don't mix here, but I'm glad I haven't really broken fellowship from either as they are solid KJV Bible believers, and many times, we'd go together preaching (and "street preaching") with one mind and heart.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Biblestudent

Brother George, thanks for asking that question for me!

Brother tonybones 2112, I seem to agree with some of your "disagreements", but I disagree with you concerning the beginning of the Body of Christ and with your "drycleaning" conclusion.

I would like to ask two more questions:
1. Wasn't Christ made HEAD of the church, which is his body, at the Ascension? (Ephesians 1:22,23) If so, then the body has to be at least begin AFTER that.
2. Also, if water baptism is a sign (and signs are for the benefit of the Jew), then why did Paul baptize Gentiles even without one Jew present (as in Acts 16)?
This viewpoint may also vary from most of the brethren's in this forum, but have you ever considered that Paul's water baptism is different from that of John the Baptist's and Peter's in mode and meaning?

I don't see water baptism as a sign or a law only for the Jew (the word "baptism" being absent in the KJV OT). So, instead of doing away water baptism, I "rightly divide" the different baptisms, such as, Peter's vs. Paul's.
That is, I observe the "ordinancES" (plural, at least two) AS PAUL delivered it (1 Cor. 11:2), and not observe the "ordinances" which is CONTRARY to us (Col. 2:14-16).

Concerning your experience being an "outcast", I suffered the same thing with my fellow IFB's and "Ruckmanites". The two groups don't mix here, but I'm glad I haven't really broken fellowship from either as they are solid KJV Bible believers, and many times, we'd go together preaching (and "street preaching") with one mind and heart.

!. George, you could very well be correct on Ephesians 1.This would place the beginning of the Body Of Christ in Acts 1. My only objection to that is the passages in Ephesians 1 seem to indicate He was made Head of a Body already in existence, that being the 11 Apostles and His disciples. We cannot have an Ascension without a Resurrection, no Resurrection without a Burial, no Burial without a Death. I stand with Dr. Ruckman on this one: What have I got in my pocket? Something can be in existence without being revealed, we are looking back 2000 years after the fact. God made the Old Testament with Israel that was not binding on the Gentiles, at the cross He made a New Testament with Israel in that the Gentiles were now open to the blessing THROUGH ISRAEL. At the final rejection in Acts 7, Israel was set aside and salvation and blessing now come to the Gentiles apart from Israel. This segues into number two,
2. The first water baptism in the bible was in Leviticus 8, the first step in consecrating a Levite priest, the second step being the pouring of oil, a type of the Holy Spirit.To fulfill the prophecy of Exodus 19 to make a kingdom of priests, John The Baptist, of the tribe of Levi, came baptising with water., as he said several times, but One greater than he would perform the second part of the consecration, Christ, Who would "baptize"(pour out to wash)with the Holy Ghost. This is why the Holy Spirit points out in the Scriptures Apollos knew only "the baptism of John" and had to be shown a more perfect way. That's why Paul, a wise master builder, wrote to Jewish-Gentile churches (Rome, Corinth)and administered both "ordinances" and "signs".

1. Water baptism
2. Spirit baptism
3. Tongues
4. Signs
5. Wonders
6. Heal the sick
7. Raise the dead
8. The "Lord's supper"
9 Poisonous serpents will cause no harm.
10. Deadly poisons drank will cause no harm(to be fulfilled in the Tribulation when the waters are made bitter.)

I want to engrave two things into stone right now: The book of Acts is a very dangerous place to nest in and build a church denomination or theology from. I told my former Church Of Christ relatives that years before I read Doc Ruckman's words to that effect in his commentary on the book of Acts. The second is that we have to let Paul be what God made him into, a wise MASTER buldier who oversaw the whole project. Paul was the apostle through which God grafted the Gentiles into the Body and the apostle the 12 deferred to as the "prince" of the apostles, NOT Peter. So yes, Paul, a WISE master builder baptized in Acts 16 and then got bit by vipers in Act 28 and threw them into the fire. His ministry exclusively to Israel ended at the end of that chapter/book. Bullinger said the Body began there. No, the Body began at Calvary, the signs ended at Acts 28.

Paul mentions the Lord's supper to the Corinthians in the context of stop having orgies at church. When we were on the street with that ministry, every beer bottle and rock, every bag of urine thrown at us was a reminder of why we were there, to tell the lost of Christ's broken body and shed blood for everybody, not Welch's juice and a Zesta saltine. Jesus Christ and the 12 observed the Jewish Passover where Christ showed them the TRUE meaning of the ordinance and Feast. I don't observe it. I'm a Gentile born outside the commonwealth of Israel but made nigh by the blood of Christ, not by immersion in water nor Welch's and a Zesta saltine.

If we are going to cherry-pick Messianic Jewish ordinances and signs from the book of Acts, I need to see where church buildings, church letters, and denominations are found in the book of Acts since the only church buildings mentioned were synagogues and meeting in people's homes. Paul went to the Jews FIRST right up to the end of the book of Acts. I go to anybody and everybody.

Brother George, I'd be proud to serve in the front lines with you preaching Christ and Him crucified. if you need any further clarification just ask. My dispensationalist brethren are still trapped at Early, Mid, Late Acts. I'm in Acts chapter 29 verse 1. You say there is no Acts 29. Yeah, look in the mirror.

Right now, today. Acts 29 is us. The fields are white to harvest, today is the day of salvation.

Grace, peace, and much fruit to you.

Tony

[Biblestudent]

I'm Biblestudent, not George!

[Biblestudent]

"Baptism" is a NT word and not once found in the OT in the KJV.

Water baptism to the Jew is different than the water baptism for the church.
Lord's Supper for the Jew has a different meaning than the Lord's supper for the church.

1 Corinthians 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

Church ordinances AS DELIVERED BY PAUL are not the same as the ordinances to Israel,which "are contrary to us" (Col. 2:14-16).

Kingdom signs and kingdom ordinances were dropped, but Christ delivered through Paul church ordinances.

[Biblestudent]

The body may be "framed" at the cross, but no one can be in there before Christ was made head. No one is in Christ before Christ.

[cliffordsndrs451]

Stephanos, I am unfortunately in the camp with those that believe that the men of God were clearly inspired in formulating the KJB (although not of course like Paul). Further, I also feel that desires and attitudes have certainly changed over the last nearly 400 years. I feel that in the 1600's people of God looked at their life and attempted to conform more closely to the image of God and monitored their behavior while the majority of people today have a strong desire to match what they think God should be to their life today this can only seriously delute our connections with sovereign Holiness.

[Brother Jerry]

That's a great observation.

I see many people being conformed to this world instead of being transformed by the Word of God. (sadly, in the church as well)

Wickedness has many more avenues today than in 1611; as a result, it abounds more and more.

Television is the best transmission wickedness has found. It appeals to our senses and is easy to access and requires no effort to absorb...just sit and let it fill you with darkness.

Reading the Bible requires one to pay attention and use your mind.

Originally Posted by cliffordsndrs451

Stephanos, I am unfortunately in the camp with those that believe that the men of God were clearly inspired in formulating the KJB (although not of course like Paul).

I have not heard of differing types of inspiration. Could you please delineate the differences between how you think the translators of the KJV were inspired vs. how Paul was inspired?

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Brother Jerry

That's a great observation.

I see many people being conformed to this world instead of being transformed by the Word of God. (sadly, in the church as well)

Wickedness has many more avenues today than in 1611; as a result, it abounds more and more.

Television is the best transmission wickedness has found. It appeals to our senses and is easy to access and requires no effort to absorb...just sit and let it fill you with darkness.

Reading the Bible requires one to pay attention and use your mind.

Ec 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
1Th 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Studying the Scriptures can be laborous to the body (Ecc. 12:12)yet refreshing to the mind. You need to be attentive and in privacy and not concerned with the deacons new Caddy(I Thes. 4:11) but the rewards are many(II Tim. 2:15).

Grace and peace.

Tony

[bibleprotector]

Originally Posted by solabiblia

I have not heard of differing types of inspiration.

I think you have indeed heard of such an idea, because I think you are familiar with what James White has previously said on this subject: "This group truly believes that God supernaturally inspired the King James Version in such a way that the English text itself is inerrant revelation. Basically, God 're-inspired' the Bible in 1611, rendering it in the English language."

And, "We have heard of small groups that go even further, claiming that the KJV was written in eternity, and that Abraham and Moses and the prophets all read the 1611 KJV, including the New Testament!"

I wonder if the new edition of James White’s “King James Only Controversy” will have solid citations for this type of vague reporting.