[pbiwolski]

Originally Posted by Winman

Satan and the angels may have been included under "heaven" in Gen 1:1. Now they would have several days to observe God's creation. The earth is described as "without form, and void" in verse 2. To me, "without form" would suggest the earth had no features. It was a ball covered with water.

Is this water to be considered part of "the heaven" or part of "the earth" that was created in Gen. 1:1?

[Winman]

You keep insisting that "without form" means destruction. That is one meaning of the word, but the primary meaning is "lie waste". I believe God "formed" the earth when he made the dry land appear.

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

And earth was made for man, not God.

Psalms 115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

Notice in Isa 45:18 that it says God formed the earth to be inhabited. So, God's purpose was to make the dry land appear for man to live upon the earth. Man could not have lived upon a world "without form" covered in water.

Have you ever worked with clay? When you first start you have a big ball or lump of clay. It is "without form". When you shape the clay, it takes on form (features), even if they are simple. Well, this is how I view Gen 1:2, the earth was just a ball of water without features. But when the land appeared, now the earth is formed and has features. It is all simple.

[Winman]

Is this water to be considered part of "the heaven" or part of "the earth" that was created in Gen. 1:1?

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters

This verse is clearly describing the earth. And it is also describing what "without form" means, the whole earth was covered with water. And we know there was no dry land until Gen 1:9-10

Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

[chette777]

OK lets use the Bible for the meaning of "without form and Void" by using Gods inspired and preserved cross reference system found only in the KJV. God uses exact words and phrases in this system of His. so this important to learn it and use it. (using this same system you can find over 150 similarities between Joseph and Jesus as found in Gen 39-50)

Gen1:2 description is found in one other place so let's compare the scriptures

Ge 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, [it was] without form, and void; and the heavens, and they [had] no light.

In Jeremiah the context is the destruction of Jerusalem. so the prophet is saying he has seen it's destruction as without form and void. The only place in the Bible to where we can get the meaning of "without form and void" supports the fact that without form a void means destroyed and desolate. also if God is showing us a look back to the Gen 1:2 state. How can Gods heaven be without light when God is light and he permeates his heaven with light. Unless something brought darkness before Gen1:2

Water are so peculiar but you only speak of one verse, verse 9

look at Gen 1:6-8 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament (this is the frozen deep, a container that separates the lower two heavens from THE HEAVEN), and divided the waters which were under the firmament (Where the sun moon and stars will later be) from the waters which were above the firmament (where God lives today or the third heaven): and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. Notice this firmament here is not said to be good that is because anything that separates God from His creation is not good. But because it serves God will for man he will in verse 31 say everything is good. if you make the firmament the Atmosphere for the sun moon and stars are not in our atmosphere. and it changes after Noah's flood

now let the water under the heaven are those waters on the earth itself context tell us so. there are forms of water found on other planets and in other parts of the universe under the firmament but verse 9 is not speaking of those.

The deep is not the oceans (though at time in scriptures it is used in that understanding as well.) But the vastness of the Heaven where the earth is located. it was so filled with darkness and waters that God the creator had to call for light.

I hope that helped you

[chette777]

I ran out of time with my last post.

so continuing:

I have no doubt God in the 6 day creation, God created the current form of earth for man. But there was on the earth a throne in the past eternity (Lucifer thought it was his) and there will be a throne in the future eternity Rev 22. Both these thrones were and are in eternity. And if Lucifer's throne was on the earth after creation and before the fall surely God would have recorded it just as he does all things pertaining to man in the Bible.

Originally Posted by Winman

Th I believe God "formed" the earth when he made the dry land appear.
d

Why does God call it Earth before he creates earth on the third day? where did God get the name earth? God surely could have a planet set aside to glorify his Son on and in. which we see that mans purpose is for this. God continues his original purpose despite the sinfulness of his creation both of Lucifer and Adam.

The word Earth has only this main meaning "dry land". Could it be before it was covered in water it was dry land just like it will be again in Rev 21? Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

No more seas, (oceans as we call them also known as great lakes and Caspian sea, black sea, Salton Sea, slat lake, dead sea etc) as they were divided in Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas:

[chette777]

Kevin.

Originally Posted by kevinvw

What is Gen 4 to you? Is that just a day too?

I have my theory that God recaps certain days from day 1-7 in Genesis Chapter two.

Genesis Chapter three is the day after God's day of Rest (8th day or first day of the next week) by the end of that day the first couple sin (A man doesn't need more than a day to be tested) and God makes coats of skins via an evening sacrifice on that same day. The next day (still chapter three) God executes the sentence of his judgement and expels the couple from the Garden of Eden. It was after he sinned he calls Eve, Eve. up until their sin she is just called woman.

If you give more time in the garden before Adam's sin to allow for Lucifer fall. we run into a couple problems. first the Bible is a book of recorded history of the earth as it pertains to man and God purpose. And there is not recording anywhere that God gave Lucifer a throne before the throne. If he did where was it? on the earth? in the heavens? above the firmament?

And surely God would have let man know that he placed us under another whose name was Lucifer to whom he gave a throne. secondly, you would have to give Lucifer time to go and gather angles who are not on the earth at the time of the Garden either for the Bible mentions no such population until after the fall. again God owuld have recorded these things for us to know.

Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: this indicates that his throne was on the earth. if this throne was the one vacated by Adam. you have Lucifer rebelling after Adams sins in the Garden. If Lucifer, Satan, that old serpent, the devil are the same person. Logically it wont fit.

So Lucifer did not have a throne after the fall of Adam. So where was this throne it was on the earth according to Isa 14, it must have been in eternity before Gen1:2. And I believe it was not even his throne. I think he was in charge of helping to build a throne on the earth before Gen 1:2 and he made it so grand and glorious his heart was taken by his pride and he laid claim to it and tried to take the place of God.

Genesis Chapter Four Adam and Eve have had some children but possibly only females. then he had Cain and Able (twins) now a healthy 13 year old can work the farm and heard the sheep. When does a man become a man? When he can procreate so lets say they were 13 to 18 years old. Also chapter four tells us Cain had a wife before he was sent to the land of Nod. So it is possible Able had a wife too although we are never told because he is killed.

At the end of Chapter four we are told Adam was 130 years old when he had Seth. So from Day 6 until Seth Adams years were 130. I have no problem with that.

But to claim he was 100 when he had Cain and Able is unscriptural. Cain and Able could be anywhere form 13 to 99 years old by the time Cain slew Able. And Adam could have been anywhere in age from 14-100

See I give allowance for time. I would assume Adams aging started at the exodus from the Garden.

[geologist]

Originally Posted by Winman

So there was roughly 100 years available from the sixth day of creation until Adam and Eve sinned and were expelled from the garden. Of course, we don't know for sure how long after being expelled that Cain was conceived. Satan may have tempted Eve 50 years after the sixth day of creation (just an example). They could have waited many years after being expelled before coming together. But I seriously doubt that knowing human nature.

But time began at the beginning mentioned in Gen 1:1. It is simple and straightforward.

1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Actually, Cain and able were born within a year after the serpent tempted Eve and the man and woman were expelled. Cain and Able were twins, the former one's father was the "serpent" and the latter one's father was Adam. Sort of twins, but not: Two babies, two fathers.

Genesis 4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

She gave birth to two babies at the same time.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Genesis 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Check out the root meaning of the word "beguiled".

avn nasha' naw-shaw'
a primitive root; to lead astray, i.e. (mentally) to delude, or (morally) to seduce:--beguile, deceive, X greatly, X utterly.

Think about it!

[MC1171611]

Geologist,

I tend to agree with the idea that Cain was of Lucifer's seed, though Jesus said to the Pharisees "Ye are of your father the devil" and they obviously weren't all physical offspring of Satan. The other reason I tend to think that way is because of how she said "I have gotten a man from the Lord," as if she thought that this was the seed that God had spoken of. She had been tempted once, and it's possible from this scripture that Lucifer had shown up again and deceived her into thinking he was God and impregnating her with Cain.

Interesting stuff, but I do agree that they were twins ("and she again bare his brother Abel" with no "and Adam knew Eve his wife" again).

[geologist]

Originally Posted by MC1171611

Geologist,

I tend to agree with the idea that Cain was of Lucifer's seed, though Jesus said to the Pharisees "Ye are of your father the devil" and they obviously weren't all physical offspring of Satan. The other reason I tend to think that way is because of how she said "I have gotten a man from the Lord," as if she thought that this was the seed that God had spoken of. She had been tempted once, and it's possible from this scripture that Lucifer had shown up again and deceived her into thinking he was God and impregnating her with Cain.

Interesting stuff, but I do agree that they were twins ("and she again bare his brother Abel" with no "and Adam knew Eve his wife" again).

And such would also explain this verse:

Genesis 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

[Winman]

You guys are twisting a lot of scripture. Cain was not Satan's offspring, he was Adam's son, though he inherited his sinful fallen nature. All unsaved persons are of the Devil, this is why you must be born again as a son of God.

Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. 2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

In verse 4:1 it clearly states that Adam knew Eve his wife and she conceived. When Cain is born Eve said she had gotten a man (singular) from the LORD. So Cain and Abel were not twins. In verse 4:2 we are told Eve bare again. This could have been any amount of time, but most likely it was within several years of Cain's birth as is normal.

And I still believe Cain and Abel were adults when Cain slew Abel as pointed out in verse 3 "in process of time".

As for the phrase "without form, and void" in Jeremiah, that particular verse does not mention Jerusalem. Read for yourself.

Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

This particular verse almost seems to be a repeat of Gen 1:2. It mentions the earth as being without form and void (not Jerusalem) and also says the heavens had no light. When was this ever the case? Since God said "Let there be light" the heavens and the earth have always had light. Jerusalem has been destroyed several times, but light did not fail from heaven.