Kiwi: good questions.

Winman: good answers.

Winman... you have to watch our brother Kiwi carefully, he does ask some very good questions. And whatever you do, don't get him started on the worms! Okay I'm leaving now...

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by Winman

You have a point there.

However the Lord also said;

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


So, we all stand before God at the judgement, but the unsaved will be sent away.

It could be an absence from the PHYSICAL presence of Jesus Christ.

I'm reminded of the passage in Isaiah 66 which I believe refers to the lake of fire and it's inhabitants, it says that we "will look upon" them at regular intervals, the context is the new heavens and earth:

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

And there we find that mysterious word "worm" which I believe is a reference the the very soul of those who have died in their transgressions/sins, in that they will take the form of a worm in the lake of fire. I think Bro. Parrish wholeheartedly agrees with me here!

[Winman]

You might be correct. But I have often thought it is talking about literal worms, or perhaps bacteria.

Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

Isa 51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings. 8 For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.


Now here the worm is not their soul, but an actual worm. Now to me this is speaking of the decay of the body.

Just my theory, but I believe that the unsaved will not only be tormented in fire, but they will continue to decay as a dead body decays forever. Pretty gruesome, but I believe this might be the case.

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by Winman

Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

Isa 51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings. 8 For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.

It looks like the context in these verses is the "grave", meaning their fleshly body in the ground, not eternity in the lake of fire.

Originally Posted by Winman

Just my theory, but I believe that the unsaved will not only be tormented in fire, but they will continue to decay as a dead body decays forever. Pretty gruesome, but I believe this might be the case.

I can't get my head around an eternal decaying, down here if something decays it breaks down and eventually disappears, and we know that's not the case in eternity. What verses do you use to support this theory, brother?

Winman, I warned you brother...

As I have explained to Bro. Kiwi in great detail, I think "their worm" could be indicative of undying worms in hell, supernatural worms which shall eat and eat and eat... not a pretty thought. I have never totally rejected or accepted Kiwi's worm-soul theory, and I have far too much respect for him to argue. Mark my word---we went round and round on this one time until he had me SEEING worms.

For the record; I think these are the supernatural worms of hell which cover the fallen angel Lucifer (Satan) in Isaiah 14:9-15.

They are made for a special purpose, they NEVER die, just like "the fire that NEVER shall be quenched." (Mark 9:43-48).

I think these may be the same supernatural worms which God apparently used to devour Herod Agrippa in a matter of seconds. (Acts 12:23).

I don't see how anyone could be dogmatic about it, I think it depends on how you interpret the meaning of worm.

1. God has used fiery serpents to torment and kill people. (Numbers 21:6-9)

2. Worms are associated in scripture with hell and satan. (Isaiah 14:9-15)

3. There is a worm that never dies, associated with fire that is never quenched. (Mark 9:44)

4. There are spiritual creatures that torment humans (Mark 9:22)

5. Scripture calls men worms, but they are also called serpents, vipers and dogs. It's not literal.
Unless you think they are all reptiles and canines as well as worms. (Matt. 23:33, Isaiah 56)

6. A plastic worm (or rubber worm) is a plastic fishing lure, generally made to simulate an earthworm. Plastic worms can carry a variety of shapes, colors and sizes, and are made from a variety of synthetic polymers. Some are even scented to simulate live bait and are offered under the trade names "Bass Assassin," "Slug-Go," and "Squirmin' Super Worm."

Sorry brothers but I had to lighten things up a little.
That last one comes free with the post, no extra charge.

[Kiwi Christian]

Okay, here's my 2c about this "worm":

Scripture recognizes that man IS a worm:

Job 25:6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

Incidentally, the male sperm has the appearance of a worm!

The soul of man has a bodily shape once it has left the flesh:

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as theywere, should be fulfilled.

The soul can burn forever in Hell as a body without ever burning up:

2 Corinthians 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth, such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth, 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Note that the rich man in hell was tormented "in this flame", it was the fire which was causing his suffering, there's no mention of any supernatural creature/s tormenting him.

Jesus Christ repeated the words "where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" three times in Mark 9, which is a reference to Isaiah 66:24, the context is eternal existence in HELL:

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Notice how He mentions body parts: hands, feet, and eyes, then He ends with "their worm dieth not". It looks obvious to me that their worm is them, it's "their" soul. I believe it is a description of what they become, and that they will degenerate into that shape in the lake of fire.

I don't see "their worm" as being a separate creature such as a supernatural worm which is somehow designated (theirs) to tormenting them, or eating them throughout eternity. I believe the suffering and torment the damned will experience will be caused by "fire and brimstone" according to scripture:

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


If one thing is for sure brethren, it's GREAT to be saved, amen.

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian

The soul of man has a bodily shape once it has left the flesh...

That is exactly right.
A human shape, hence the robes.
I guess this is one reason I am not feeling the whole worm-soul thing.

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian

If one thing is for sure brethren, it's GREAT to be saved, amen.

Agreed my brother in New Zealand, and thanks to you for your
contributions to these forums.

[Winman]

Winman, I warned you brother...

Bro. Parrish, Hey, that's OK, Kiwi Christian gave verses to support his opinion. Truth is, years ago I wondered about these verses and thought worm might have indeed meant soul.

That said, there are verses comparing man to dogs, swine, ass etc...

I personally believe the soul is similar to our bodies, the rich man in hell requested that Lazarus dip his finger in water and apply one drop to his tongue.

As far as everlasting decay, I think it is possible. My family member who does not believe in everlasting torment uses the same argument, how can a person spend eternity in a fire and not be consumed? I showed him these verses:

Exo 3:1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb. 2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by Winman

My family member who does not believe in everlasting torment uses the same argument, how can a person spend eternity in a fire and not be consumed? I showed him these verses:

Exo 3:1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb. 2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

Show him these also:

Daniel 3:22 Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. 23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. 24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. 25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. 26 Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire. 27 And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.

Of course, these men were not wicked, they were not dead, it was their pysical (not their soul form) bodies that were in the fire, but the principle you are making is there.

[Winman]

Kiwi

That IS good, I can't believe I didn't think of that. Thanks!