[stephanos]

Originally Posted by chette777

KIWI,

Dr Peter Ruckman, Pastor David Cloud, Pastor David Walker, myself and many others do not believe the Lamb's Bride in Revelation 21 is the church. but an actual city and none of us have left of any sound Doctrine in saying so. For we interpret the Book Literally, as you should.

you can download Pastor David Cloud's MP3 the New Jerusalem. and hear it for yourself.

What's a city without its inhabitants? Did Jesus die on the cross to make a people for His name or a city for His name?

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by chette777

KIWI,

Dr Peter Ruckman, Pastor David Cloud, Pastor David Walker, myself and many others do not believe the Lamb's Bride in Revelation 21 is the church. but an actual city and none of us have left of any sound Doctrine in saying so. For we interpret the Book Literally, as you should.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, Commentary by Dr Peter S. Ruckman. Page 751:

"Revelation 21:9 ¶And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Notice that "she" is no longer engaged: she is His wife. Back in 2 Corinthians 11:2, she is "espoused" and in Revelation 19:7 she "hath made herself ready" for the marriage. Now in Revelation 21:9, she is His wife, and she is likened to a city. (Women are likened to cities, and cities are likened to women. The Devil has a bride - Babylon, She is a woman and a city. Christ has a bride - New Jerusalem. She is a woman and a city.)"

Dr Ruckman, myself, and many others DO believe the Lamb's Bride in Revelation is the church, and I DO interpret the Book literally, thank you very much.

[chette777]

well I just heard a recording from a mp3 and he said the bride in Rev 22 is the city the New Jerusalem. so maybe like some of us he has come to change his mind on some things. I will look if I can find either the MP3 or a link for it for you.

but if you interpret literally the Lamb's wife (Paul never referred to Jesus as a Lamb) is a city that is decked out like a Bride in her bridal clothing. It is called the New Jerusalem when is the Body of Christ ever called the New Jerusalem or a City by Paul? Again the answer is never. Clear literal interpretation is: it is a city not the body of Christ.

But never the less not every Baptist believes it is the body of Christ is the City, the New Jerusalem, but they do believe we will live there and with that I have no argument.

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by chette777

But never the less not every Baptist believes it is the body of Christ is the City, the New Jerusalem, but they do believe we will live there and with that I have no argument.

Taking the New Jerusalem argument out of the way for a moment, the biggest issue I take with you, brother, is that you imply you don't believe the body of Christ, the Church, is engaged to marry the Lord Jesus Christ and become His wife at a future time? Is this what you believe?

[chette777]

"Engaged to Marry" Marriage is defined as an union. We Brother Kiwi are already united to him by his finished work that we believed on. completed and finished. you are already the glory of Christ, you are already seen in the heavenlies as complete in him, you are already blessed with Union with him.

I think you would agree with that. So you see we am already in union with Christ.

But Revelation is a book of Prophecy and should be interpreted Literally. and it is obvious by clear English that the city is Adorned AS A Bride meaning the city in its glory is as beautiful as a bride decked out for her wedding (that is the context). the bride is a city and I have no doubt that we live in that city. I just don't believe that the Body of Christ is the City or the Bride in Revelation 21.

Proof being first to establish a doctrine it should agree with Paul's teaching and Paul never refers to the body of Christ directly and in context of any scripture as a BRIDE or CITY or a WIFE, nor does he refer to Christ as a LAMB.

Ruckman could be wrong. He is not the final authority. all Men including you and I are prone to error. Again 2Cor11, Eph 5 are not scripture referring in any way to the body of Christ being a CITY, BRIDE, WIFE nor do they present Christ as a LAMB. to infer that to those Scriptures is to add yours or Ruckman's or Pentecost's or any other teachers opinion or subjective thought to those scriptures would render those scriptures out of context.

The bride has made herself ready is a figure of speech, of Israel having completed her Chastisement. So this would place this at the end of the Great Tribulation (context), and speaking to Jews as they are blessed who have been called to this union. We are seen in the next section as the great Army which follows him. but we never participate in the Battle, but we are there at that Battle.

The Marriage is Christ coming to join His people Israel on the earth. this wedding feast connects naturally to Matthew 22, 25; Luke 14 which is all speaking of Israel before the cross being united with her king our Lord Jesus Christ.

I believe the Bride of revelation is perfected Israel after the Millennial Kingdom. and we will be in that city because Christ is.

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by chette777

"Engaged to Marry" Marriage is defined as an union. We Brother Kiwi are already united to him by his finished work that we believed on. completed and finished. you are already the glory of Christ, you are already seen in the heavenlies as complete in him, you are already blessed with Union with him.

The Marriage is Christ coming to join His people Israel on the earth.

Let me get this straight, you believe that the Church is married to Jesus Christ now, and that Israel will be married to Jesus Christ at the end of the Tribulation? However, you don't view this marriage as literal husband and wife, but as a "union" or a joining of one to the other?

[chette777]

No, I said we are united to Christ now. And if you want ot use the word marry you will have to come to say we are not in union with Christ yet but will be in the future. by the time Rev 21 comes along you were united in heaven with Christ and perfected over 1000 years. but if you aren't ok with me but I am even now in union with Christ

However Israel is not in union with them. that is what will takes place and what is described in the future (prophecy) as the wedding feast of the Lamb in Rev 19, the Lamb's bride is the New Jerusalem (Jewish not church) is the perfected Israel joined with the Lord for eternity.

Marriage is just word to mean union. So don't get it twisted around like a JW. In the context of Rev, the Marriage is the union between Christ and Israel Rev 19.

Then in Rev 21-22 there isn't any mention about a wedding or marriage at all, men have made it say that. See how you would have to change what the word of God Literally says to make it fit the church?

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband (all figures of speech) Rev 21:9, 10 Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, you see no mention of a wedding or a marriage. just descriptive words that mean a City in Glory.

Stop arguing and open your eyes for five seconds. your coming to these scritures with preconceived ideas that another man has taught (Ruckman or whoever). I too did the same until I dropped all men's views to see Gods Word clearly. you must do the same.

I never notice it before but now I do, it is not the church in Rev 21 and 22.

hey that rhymes!

now to answer your question do I see our selves in a marriage with the Lord. In a sense of union yes we are married to Christ. But remember I say that (and so do you) without any scripture from the Apostle to the Gentile. the closest he get is 2Cor11 wth the term espoused and in the context of the books of Corinthians. yes we should see ourselves as united with Christ even as a marriage. but that doesn't make Rev 22 the church or Body of Christ. We should see Christ as our head as a husband is head of his wife Eph5. but that doesn't make Rev 21 the body of Christ

A union took place with Christ the moment we believed. Many all of the 77 references of "in Christ" give the meaning of union; i.e. 2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new In Christ shows the Union

Ga 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

all reference of "One Body" give the meaning of union in Christ: Rom 12:5 So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

the term "joined" most definitely gives the meaning of union 1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. also Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. Paul teaching us we are in union with Christ just as a husband is with his wife. but thisis not in reference to Rev 21.even for the meaning of marriage: 1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

the term "with Christ" also has the understanding of a union: Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Ephesians Chapter one gives us the benefits of the Union and the term "in Him", "in Christ" are numerous through our Ephesians one all of which signify union with Christ. so you see there is mo wedding for the body of one we are already in union.

Of course you're looking forward to a great day of a wedding feast, no such thing promised the church or promised to you. you are literally the groom for you are one with the Groom, the Lamb, you are one with Christ. so in Christ you will be part of the Wedding feast but it is for Israel not you and I. A man cannot marry himself. Scriptures have been hijacked that are for Israel and placed on the church. Now who would want that confusion I wonder?

Our Joining with Christ is two fold at belief and at the Gathering in the clouds. but we are literally already joined with him and in union with him and one another.

See what we have been taught is that the combined verses of 2Cor11, Eph5 and Rev 21 are all speaking of the Body of Christ. but when kept in context of each verses, we see these verses can't even go together. They don't even possess the natural King James cross reference God placed in his word with certain words by his own preserving power. i.e. Bride, Marriage, Wife, Lamb, City. And the context of each verse is different than the event of Revelation 21

I am not asking to argue with you. I ask only that you clearly without preconceived ideas of any scripture and see for yourself. The teaching it is the body of Christ comes from a long line of hijacked promises for Israel that after coming our of RC many have had a hard time to shake it off and get it right.

why not live like your in union and celebrate your marriage everyday and stop looking forward to some event that is not promised us.

[Kiwi Christian]

With all due respect Chette, I think you've lost the plot with Revelation 19-22. You yourself have admitted you have changed your mind recently about the identity of the bride/wife in these verses, after holding the belief that she is the Church, as most of us do. You even removed your signature "waiting for my Bridegroom" within the time we've been discussing this. You tell me to open my eyes, but in reality I think something has closed yours!

You are the one and only professing Bible believer who I know subscribes to Israel marrying Jesus Christ in these verses. Your exegesis throughout this thread has been difficult to follow and is quite frankly confusing. Thank you very much, but I'm going to stick with the preconceived ideas that other faithful men of God have taught me (2 Timothy 2:2) about the Church being a virgin who is currently espoused to marry Jesus Christ in heaven above, and who is the wife which hath made herself ready in Rev 19:7, I believe this to be the correct interpretation. I thank brothers Larkin, Schofield, and Ruckman for their input on this doctrine, they speak so much more sense than you do and also provide far more clarity in the scriptural evidence & typology they present for the Lamb's wife being the Church.

[chette777]

let me ask you a question, "since you became saved haven't you changed your mind of some things?"

I am sure that Ruckman helped bring some change in things you held different opinions on. He has for me.

I discovered that the whole theme of the Bible is not Salvation though that may be a valid and wonderful reason. But it has to do with God glorifying his Son. The throne on the Earth to the glory of God is the main reason from before creation. it was that throne and purpose that stumped Lucifer.

Anyway, I enjoy my Bible and it's wonderful ability to stifle everyone's theology somewhere.

I am not trying to convince you but like I said there are many that literally see the Bride in Revelation as a city not the body of Christ. Remember now Larkin and Scolfield are Calvinist they will shape their theology according to Calviism and replacing Israel with the elect would be one of those short comings.

I am in some pretty good company and not alone. Pastor David Walker (A Ruckman Student), Dr David Cloud, Pastor Dave Reese, Dr Lewis Chafer, Dr Ken Blue, Oliver B Greene and dozens of more. All believe the Bride of Revelation 21 is a glorious City not the body of Christ.

I haven't given up on the Body of Christ as a bride you know, the church might be the bride of Christ (thought that term is never found in scripture). But Rev 21 the bride is a City plain and simple. No need to spiritualize, devotionalize or Allergorize it.

[MC1171611]

So Jesus is currently married to the Church, will marry the nation of Israel after the Tribulation, and is going to marry a physical CITY after the Millennium??

Are you serious??? Talk about polygamy!!