The differences between what I believe and most Baptist churches were minute. As for labels, I'm not trying to be ecumenical. I hold that there are fundamental ("critical" or "essential") doctrines then there are other doctrines that are not essential to salvation. The ones that are essential:

1. The Bible is a Christian’s final authority. Without this fact being established, it all becomes a matter of opinion. God doesn’t have “opinions”.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

2. We are all sinners
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

3. God Himself provided a way for us to get saved from sin and saved from judgment
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

4. And we can have assurance of being saved
1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

5. It's the blood of Jesus Christ that washes away our sins
Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood...

6. Because of this, we will be with Jesus forever
John 14:3 (Jesus speaking) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

7. Because of what Jesus did, we miss Hell
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

8. There is only one way to Heaven
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

This is worth contending for. Not just to be accurate, but to win those who are on their way to Hell. Remember:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I'm supposing you're referring to the doctrines of eternal security and gifts of the Spirit. Knowing how Baptists believe (I used to be a Baptist), I didn't think it was necessary (while pastoring the SBC church) to aggravate a person just to be right about my point of view. I wanted to convince them of the truth, not just prove myself right. I never did hide it, it just didn't seem necessary to be obnoxious about it. If I was going to aggravate someone, it would be concerning the fundamentals I mentioned above and calling sin sin.

As for eternal security, I believe closer to what Baptists believe. My contention is nobody has to be saved if they don't want to be. A "debate" I had with an atheist, the atheist said he used to be a born again Christian, attended Bible college and was a Christian for many years (and he believed all the essential doctrines and did evangelistic work) until his tour in the navy supposedly "opened his eyes to the truth" and he stopped believing in God. To say he is still saved would be a problem since he no longer believes there is a God. And, to say he was never saved in the first place, that would be closer to Roman Catholic doctrine. He said he repented of his sins, prayed to receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. If he wasn't saved in the first place, how do we know that? If we were to have met him before he became an atheist, we would have called him our brother in Christ.

So, you see, it is those two areas of contention that are the differences between me as a Pentecostal and most Baptists (I say most because of the doctrine of predestination is held by some Baptists and I believe the predestination is for Christians as described in the following verses:

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will...

...and NOT that some are ordained to be saved and other are not).

In this thread, I'm trying to get away from arguing about the gifts of the Spirit because it isn't getting anywhere. Where churches are dying is their replacing God's Word with a counterfeit.

If you preached in an SBC church and did not touch down on the doctrines where you differed, then you compromised - because they Bible COMMANDS you to preach ALL the counsel of God's Word.

As far as that atheist, according to the Bible they were never saved - like the seed that sprung up for a little while but had no root and soon withered away. If someone claimed to be a believer at one time, then later utterly rejects the Lord and His Word, they were never saved to begin with - no matter how much they convinced themselves or others that they were.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

I knew someone would say that - accuse me of compromise- and the "not saved in the first place" thing.That's just being contentious and argumentative and sounds like a miserable Christian in need of some joy (at least that is how it comes across to me). Consider these verses (Jesus speaking):

Mark 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

1 Corinthians 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.


When I know someone does not believe as I do, should I become obnoxious? It isn't like I refused to discuss it or denied it. When I received the Gift of the Holy Ghost (Acts 10:45), I wasn't nagged. Well, I didn't "nag" either.

I hope this doesn't turn out to be another "get the Pentecostal guy" discussion. I'm going to limit myself to discussing the tragedy of dead and dying churches. I desire to be used of God to be a part of the solution and not the problem.

I did not mention any particular doctrine. You are called to preach the whole Bible, not just the message of salvation. As a pastor, if you only touched down on what was agreeable to everyone (ie. just salvation in this case - as you indicated), then you did not preach all the counsel of God's Word - you hedged your preaching.

No offence, but....
you are like a long walk off a short peir.

However, I should be thanking you. You at first caused me some frustration. But, I've actually grown as a result of your comments. So, thank you.

[Jeff]

Mikie, I thought you started this thread for the sake of discussion, how can there be legitimate discussion if you take offense every time someone gives you their opinion? How can there be any real understanding if we don't discuss what we believe and why we believe it so that we don't offend you?

I believe there needs to be labels, specific labels; mormons will call themselves Christians (please don't take offense at this and say I'm comparing you to a mormon, I'm not, I'm simply trying to make a point by using an obvious example). We need to understand where each one is coming from, at the same time we can't just blindly agree with you so as not to offend when our convictions are different. Iron sharpens iron (you've stated yourself that you've grown, so why take offense?).

Many years ago I attended an Assembly of God church for quite some time, so I'm not completely ignorant of, nor do I believe I'm purposely blind and hostile to you and your doctrine. There were just things I couldn't reconcile (and I did try) and felt uncomfortable with, nor did I see huge amounts of the fruit of the Spirit in the everyday lives of those who spoke in tongues and were being continually refilled with the Spirit.

Jeff, of course you are right. Being offended is the wrong word, but I'm definitely guilty of feeling defensive. There is a previous thread where what I've stated about the Pentecostal issue took place. I wanted to get away from that here. I don't see the need to rehash the same thing with the same people over and over again.

Your observations about the fruit of the Spirit and the Gifts of the Spirit I concur with. It does throw a dim light on the gifts of the Spirit. That is what is being talked about in 1 Corinthians 13:1. When I pastored the SBC church, one reason I didn't even attempt to deal with the gifts of the Spirit is because I believe the fruit of the Spirit is more important. Without the fruit of the Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit are made of no value (1 Corinthians 13).

I thank my God that both my salvation and the Gift of the Holy Ghost are not dependent on man. Christianity as just a religion is quite caustic.

[Jeff]

I think you asked a legitimate question about the lack of life in churches today.

I believe it all starts with faith, or lack of it.

2 Peter 1:5-8 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Everything is built upon faith. James 2 talks about faith without works being dead.

I think looking for my particular gift(s) actually hindered me. I simply didn't seem to have any. At the same time there were things that I was called to do that I couldn't seem to pass off even though I felt very unqualified. Only after I was finally obedient and acted in faith did I experience the strength of God helping me. I believe that further strengthed my faith more than if I had demanded some great gift from God first. For when I am weak, then I am strong (2Cor 12:10b).

I wonder how many other people are waiting for some gift or sign to suddenly appear before they step out in faith in what they may already feel called to do.

Originally Posted by Pastor Mikie

The differences between what I believe and most Baptist churches were minute. As for labels, I'm not trying to be ecumenical. I hold that there are fundamental ("critical" or "essential") doctrines then there are other doctrines that are not essential to salvation. The ones that are essential:

1. The Bible is a Christian’s final authority. Without this fact being established, it all becomes a matter of opinion. God doesn’t have “opinions”.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

2. We are all sinners
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

3. God Himself provided a way for us to get saved from sin and saved from judgment
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

4. And we can have assurance of being saved
1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

5. It's the blood of Jesus Christ that washes away our sins
Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood...

6. Because of this, we will be with Jesus forever
John 14:3 (Jesus speaking) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

7. Because of what Jesus did, we miss Hell
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

8. There is only one way to Heaven
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

This is worth contending for. Not just to be accurate, but to win those who are on their way to Hell. Remember:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I'm supposing you're referring to the doctrines of eternal security and gifts of the Spirit. Knowing how Baptists believe (I used to be a Baptist), I didn't think it was necessary (while pastoring the SBC church) to aggravate a person just to be right about my point of view. I wanted to convince them of the truth, not just prove myself right. I never did hide it, it just didn't seem necessary to be obnoxious about it. If I was going to aggravate someone, it would be concerning the fundamentals I mentioned above and calling sin sin.

As for eternal security, I believe closer to what Baptists believe. My contention is nobody has to be saved if they don't want to be. A "debate" I had with an atheist, the atheist said he used to be a born again Christian, attended Bible college and was a Christian for many years (and he believed all the essential doctrines and did evangelistic work) until his tour in the navy supposedly "opened his eyes to the truth" and he stopped believing in God. To say he is still saved would be a problem since he no longer believes there is a God. And, to say he was never saved in the first place, that would be closer to Roman Catholic doctrine. He said he repented of his sins, prayed to receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. If he wasn't saved in the first place, how do we know that? If we were to have met him before he became an atheist, we would have called him our brother in Christ.

So, you see, it is those two areas of contention that are the differences between me as a Pentecostal and most Baptists (I say most because of the doctrine of predestination is held by some Baptists and I believe the predestination is for Christians as described in the following verses:

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will...

...and NOT that some are ordained to be saved and other are not).

In this thread, I'm trying to get away from arguing about the gifts of the Spirit because it isn't getting anywhere. Where churches are dying is their replacing God's Word with a counterfeit.

Hi Pastor Mikie,

I agree with you in almost all areas of doctrine , bar your positoin on the relevance and use of spiritual gifts today, and going by your previous posts, your position on what is and isnt God pleasing music.

In a nutshell, I believe that a person is saved by grace through a free will decision to believe and accept the Gospel, and is kept saved for eternity despite backslidings...once saved always saved.

I was just making an observation,by using your example,of the fact that a southern Baptist congregation should take 16 months before noticing or caring that a Pentacostal was doing the preaching was an example of a church not grounded in its own doctrine.

My point being that when a church is not grounded in correct doctrine by the study of scripture, they are left open to being "infiltrated" by by erroneous teachings. This leads to confusion and ultimately a weak and dead church.

Here in Australia,Baptist union churches, as opposed to Independent Baptist churches are open to many types of doctrine because they dont want to "offend" anyone. The result being confusion over Bible versions, predestination, loss of salvation, spiritual gifts and other issues that Indedpendant congregations are very sound on in their doctrinal position.

One example is of a local Baptist Union church promoting the preaching of a Pentacostal who claimed to have died, gone to Hell, then Heaven, then come back to life again. His main message, while on the surface was the Gospel, revolved around the christian focussing on listening to God whispering in their ears and only using the Bible as a secondary reference. He also speaks in tongues.

Added to this weakening is the ever more prevelant multi faith service where Catholics and Protestants are finding common ground and fellowship via the practice of speaking in tongues.

I know that you wanted to avoid a discussion on the spiritual gifts, and this is not an effort to reopen one, just an observation that the use of such gifts today, in my opinion, is part and parcel of the "emerging church" and goes hand in hand with many other compromises that add up to weak and dying churches.

FUNDY