[Traditional Anglican]

There are SO many but this is one I got into a "scrap" over with a Calvinist: Regeneration comes BEFORE Faith. Brethren, like most Calvinist this was presented to me as SUCH a sophisticated idea! Think about it for even a second! It MAKES NO SENSE! Faith is really not a "factor" here, he admitted as much! I said even IF I accepted it what role does faith "play" in this construct, the answer, the Regeneration creates the Faith. My oh my! Friends, for a Calvinist, there is NO room for faith, they throw out the word now and again since it is the Bible. There are ONLY the ELECT and DEPRAVED, the Elect are saved whether they want it or not! It makes my head hurt!

[PB1789]

Traditional Anglican:--- I'd expect this post from one of the many arminians on this site but... you as a Reformed Episcopalian ARE a Calvinist!

Open up the The Book of Common Prayer and read the Articles of Religion.

Almighty God chooses us--- We don't choose Him. {see Jacab and Esau}

We are born Sinners and only God's Unmerited Favor can keep us from the Pit.

All humans are Born Dead---> Not just sick,,, but DEAD! Only The Lord God can give us life!

[George]

Originally Posted by PB1789

Traditional Anglican:--- I'd expect this post from one of the many arminians on this site but... you as a Reformed Episcopalian ARE a Calvinist!

Open up the The Book of Common Prayer and read the Articles of Religion.

Almighty God chooses us--- We don't choose Him. {see Jacab and Esau}

We are born Sinners and only God's Unmerited Favor can keep us from the Pit.

All humans are Born Dead---> Not just sick,,, but DEAD! Only The Lord God can give us life!

Aloha PB1789,

Sooo, I wonder what that (not believing in Calvinism) makes him?

A HERETIC?

An APOSTATE?

A REPROBATE?

OR . . . . . . .

A BIBLE BELIEVER?

Hmmm?

[Josh]

John 3:15-16 "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

John 12:46 "I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness."

Acts 2:21 "And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Acts 10:43 "And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Romans 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

1 John 4:15 "Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God."

1 John 5:1 "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him."

The Bible says that whosoever believeth shall be saved. If you're alive then you are a whosoever! The Holy Spirit will convict you and tell you the Gospel is true, God will call you, but man still has a free will and must choose to accept Christ as Saviour. God knows all who will ever be saved. He knew this before He ever created the universe. But He does not choose who He will and will not save. He called all, everyone, and whosoever believes He will save. His blood was shed for the sins of the whole world, not just some who He selected, and decided to send the rest to hell.

Amen brother TA, that is a false doctrine!

[Traditional Anglican]

Originally Posted by PB1789

Traditional Anglican:--- I'd expect this post from one of the many arminians on this site but... you as a Reformed Episcopalian ARE a Calvinist!

Open up the The Book of Common Prayer and read the Articles of Religion.

Almighty God chooses us--- We don't choose Him. {see Jacab and Esau}

We are born Sinners and only God's Unmerited Favor can keep us from the Pit.

All humans are Born Dead---> Not just sick,,, but DEAD! Only The Lord God can give us life!

There are different "schools" in reformed thinking. The Geneva/Calvinist is the MOST extreme! In response to your little shot that Anglicans are Calvinist, buzzzz, wrong! The Anglican Body is VERY old, older than Calvin, the REFORMED designation in my branch, Reformed Episcopal, is in fact the LEAST extreme form of Reformed thinking, we do NOT use "5 points" we teach there IS a cooperation in regard to salvation, yes we do teach the Holy Spirit must touch a fallen man before he can accept and understand the Gospel, (the idea of the Gospel in a vacuum void of the Holy Ghost is absurd. Even Classical Arminians accept this!) If you meet an Anglican who teaches a regeneration in which faith is VOID, you are talking to one who is NOT in step with the Church and one who is NOT CORRECT in their understanding of the 39 Articles.....(Most HARD CORE 5 Point Calvinist, DO NOT EVEN LIKE US/the Classical Anglicans) they HATE the fact in History that BOTH Queen Elizabeth and King James shunned the extreme teachings of the Puritans/Presbyterians! One FINAL word about your insult about my Church, I AM A CONVERT FROM AN EXTREME PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH BODY....I CONVERTED BECAUSE IT WAS NOT BIBLICAL.....I THINK I might know what I am talking about. Blessings.

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by Traditional Anglican

There are different "schools" in reformed thinking. The Geneva/Calvinist is the MOST extreme! In response to your little shot that Anglicans are Calvinist, buzzzz, wrong! The Anglican Body is VERY old, older than Calvin, the REFORMED designation in my branch, Reformed Episcopal, is in fact the LEAST extreme form of Reformed thinking, we do NOT use "5 points" we teach there IS a cooperation in regard to salvation, yes we do teach the Holy Spirit must touch a fallen man before he can accept and understand the Gospel, (the idea of the Gospel in a vacuum void of the Holy Ghost is absurd. Even Classical Arminians accept this!) If you meet an Anglican who teaches a regeneration in which faith is VOID, you are talking to one who is NOT in step with the Church and one who is NOT CORRECT in their understanding of the 39 Articles.....(Most HARD CORE 5 Point Calvinist, DO NOT EVEN LIKE US/the Classical Anglicans) they HATE the fact in History that BOTH Queen Elizabeth and King James shunned the extreme teachings of the Puritans/Presbyterians! One FINAL word about your insult about my Church, I AM A CONVERT FROM AN EXTREME PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH BODY....I CONVERTED BECAUSE IT WAS NOT BIBLICAL.....I THINK I might know what I am talking about. Blessings.

Yeah I agree with you here on the part about the Holy Ghost's touching. I can still remember feeling like the scales fell from my eyes, and afterwards praying to the Lord Jesus for forgiveness and telling Him that I would no longer fight Him anymore, but rather simply believe and trust in Him alone. But what this shows to me is that I had a choice, to either heed the call or ignore it and continue in ignorance and sin. I also do believe that this call reaches ALL men.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (John 12:32 KJV)

(man I have a hard time reading John sometimes without crying. I'm still so in love with Jesus!)

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (Romans 5:18 KJV)

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (1 Timothy 2:1-6 KJV)

And the knock out blow:

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (Titus 2:11 KJV)

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen

[Luke]

Originally Posted by PB1789

Traditional Anglican:--- I'd expect this post from one of the many arminians on this site but... you as a Reformed Episcopalian ARE a Calvinist!

Open up the The Book of Common Prayer and read the Articles of Religion.

Not the Bible?

Almighty God chooses us--- We don't choose Him. {see Jacab and Esau}

Why do you use Jacob and Esau as examples of election?

Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

First of all, Esau HAD the birthright - it was His possession. He lost it. He sold it. And he couldn't get it back. So if this is election - then it would seem one can lose it. The verses in Hebrews say he could have inherited the blessing, but because he sold his birthright, he did not. What this has to do with unconditional election, I know not.

Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Secondly, God gave a prophecy to Rebekah in Genesis 25:23. The seperation is from her bowels (or womb), not from eternity past. The promise was "the elder shall serve the younger", not "the elder shall go to hell and the younger to heaven".

Thirdly, Hebrews 11 says that Esau WAS blessed concerning things to come (though I know not what this blessing was).

[PB1789]

To:--- Traditional Anglican. Regarding your last post: You misread my post if you thought I "insulted" your church. Just the opposite! I do think that maybe you should not have posted what you did on a website that seems to be made up of mostly Scofieldian/Arminians/Chick tracters. { Kinda like showing a photo of President Bush to a room full of democrats... }

I have mentioned to you when you first came aboard that I have attended St. Lukes REC in Santa Ana, Cal.. When I was an assistant manager of a large christian bookstore next to the 405 Fwy, I invited the R.E.C. Pastor to set up a pamphlet table in our store... (as an antidote to the Beach/casual/surfer dude kinda "fellowships"). I have their website on my "Favorites List". If there was an R.E.C. in my town, I would attend it.... The nearest one is down in British Columbia, Can.. { I am Baptistic, but really like the Liturgy/Litany/Reverance and stained glass windows-( a baptist no-no )

http:www.stlukesrec.org/ Rich and deep God-honoring worship.

Look at the margin of their site under "Reading List". Many books mentioned, and 90% of them are from the pens of men who hold to the historic Christian idea ---going back to the Bible--- that men are not capable of saving themselves! Only our Lord and Saviour does the saving and choosing. This may not be popular in a day and age when you can go to the Grocery Store and pick from hundreds of different items/products, but the Scripture tells us that The Lord God Almighty is the Chooser! See Ephesians 1:4.

Here is the website of the R.E.C. . Check out the various articles and historical points. They were founded in 1873 to preserve the Reformation thinking found in the 1549 Prayer Book of Cranmer, against the Romanists who were of the "Oxford Movement" in the 1800's who wanted to get rid of the 39 Articles, because they are Protestant and Reformed.

http://rechurch.org/recus/index.html

{ They also show/list the 39 Articles of Relgion which are in the back of the Book of Common Prayer (hence, my screen name) so anyone reading these posts on this Thread can see for themself.}

I will agree with your statement that not all Reformed folks think alike---(and most Arminians don't either)--- But if you were in a Presbyterian Church , then you know they adhere to The Bible as the Written Word of God, and use/subscribe to the Westminster Confession of Faith,,, which took those good gentlemen meeting from 1644-47 to refine/smooth/polish until what they gave the Christian world was something backed-up by Scripture...Including The whole Epistle to the Romans, John Chapter 6 and John Chapter 10, NOT just by John 3:16, but rather the WHOLE counsel of the Word of God... which, btw. is why I mentioned Esau and Jacob! There are books and pamphlets available online via Calvin College's ethereal Libary where you can see the paragraphs of the Westminster (and the 1689) with the scripture proofs.

If you had a bad experience at a certain Presbyterian Church, that does not mean to toss out all the O.P.C.'s , P.C.A.'s Ref.Presb., and the Free Presbyterians- ( a good group from Northern Ireland). I also suggested to a young Christian named "Rolando" over in the Chit-Chat section---> Thread titled "Christmas" , that rather than stay home this year (He is a former R.C.) he should attend the original R.E.C. in N.Y.C. (or the one in Jersey City) this Christmas Eve/Day and invite his still R.C. family. I would not suggest a Church to somone if I thought they were a bad church.

Traditional Anglican--- You might not hold to what the Reformed teaching is on each topic,,, Hey, maybe your Pastor never mentioned it in Catechism class, or doesn't believe it himself,,, But I can tell yaa as a former Flaming with zeal Arminian... If the Reformers (1500's) and the next generation of Puritans/Presbyterians/Particular Baptists (1600's) and then the Gents of the "Great Awakening" Jonathan Edwards/George Whitefield (1700's) believed and taught these things--- There must be good reason for it. These men were not doofus ding-alings. They countered Romanism and Arminianism with the words of Our Lord Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul. They went back to Genesis and Exodus and Isaiah and Jeremiah. God is Holy and Gracious and Just. He is in Command! Rev. 4:11 --- Amen.

[Luke]

Are you implying that John Wesley & Charles Wesley, and Fanny Crosby were not used by the Lord at all?

It would seem to me that God used men (and women) to bring about great revivals in spirit and song DESPITE their false doctrines, not because of it. The Methodists think you can lose your salvation, yet the greatest Methodist hymn ever written is sung worldwide by Calvinists (Blessed Assurance). Charles Wesley was accused of being a pelagian by the Calvinists, yet two of the greatest Hymns ever written and sung by Calvinists worldwide are "And Can it Be" and "Hark the Herald Angels Sing", and yet were written by a methodist.

I think God used men despite their denomination, despite their doctrines, because of their WALK with him.

If you are going to be consistent, you should rip 90% of your hymns out of your hymnbook.

[Bill]

I have been going to a reformed church (United Reformed Church) for less than a year and am a beginner in the Calvinist/Reformed faith. One factor regarding predestination and faith is that God is not governed by time as His creation is and He sees the past, present, and future simultaneously. It seems to me that this is why God can predestine people and His foreknowledge doesn't make people into robots. Does it seem to anyone that the consideration of God's independence from His creation of time reconciles any other conflicts.