[quote]

The cross was planned BEFORE God created this world, yet God still declared that He hates workers of iniquity - so it is not either/or.

Actually, what you are doing is overlooking Scripture to fit your theory - and that is not how we are to study the Bible. We are to compare spiritual things with spiritual, precept upon precept, line upon line. We are to rightly divide the Word of God - and if our conclusions omit or contradict other passages, then we have wrongly divided it, not rightly divided it.


amen

if we look up the word world in the dictionary , the primary meaning is the universe , the whole system of creation. it cannot be that for it would contradict scripture .
a secondary definition fits with scripture it is : a great multitude or quantity ,
as in the world of business, . If i said i was going on a world tour would that mean i was going to visit every single country on the planet or some select countrys not all inclusive ? lets take a look at how scripture defines the word world.

LK.2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

is this the whole world without exception or is is the world that ceaser augustus ruled ?

lk.16:8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

hear we have a comparison of children of this world , one group and children of light another group.

JN.12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world , but to save the world .

now did Jesus come to save the whole world or the world of his elect ?

JN14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

here is the Spirit of Truth ,whom the world cannot recieve , the word world here has to mean the nonelect.

JN.15:19 If ye were of the world , the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world , but I have chosen you out of the world , therefore the world hateth you.

if ye were of this world has to be God's elect because he has chosen us out of the world therefore the nonelect hate you .

JN. 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world : thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

men which thou gavest me out of the world , the world he gave them out of has to be the non-elect.

JN. 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world , but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

here we have Jesus Praying not for the world but for his elect ,two different groups. there are many more examples but i don't want to make this post to long . other words people trip up on are all ,save or saved , and a few others, you see how the word world isn't always to be taken by the primary meaning to do so will cause contradiction in God's Word.
jim

[QUOTE=grace to me;1275]

if ye were of this world has to be God's elect because he has chosen us out of the world therefore the nonelect hate you.

so do you believe God chose who was to be lost and who was to be saved?
If that is the case then why did He say "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." Or do you believe the "any" is the elect? If that's the case look at Romans:

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

God predestinated us according to foreknowledge. Not because He picked and chose. It was because God is omniscient and knows those who will reject Him and those who will accept Him. So do you believe that God only died for the elect?

so do you believe God chose who was to be lost and who was to be saved?
yes,

Rom. 9:11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

before these children were born not having done any good or evil God chose one and not the other.

Eph. 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world , that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

we were chosen before the foundation of the world, we don't choose God he chose us.

Or do you believe the "any" is the elect? yes

i think your reading to much into the foreknow , he created us therefore he knew us , as in the above verse in romans before the children were born one God loved and one God hated.

so do you believe there is nothing you have to do , Jesus did it all , all you have to do is believe?
jim

Yes all you have to do is believe.

Romans 6:23 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved.

If you had to work for it, then what about the thief on the cross that accepted Christ? Christ told him that "today thou shalt be with Me in paradise." There was no work involved. He simply had to have faith and believe in Christ.

Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.


I also do believe in predestination. According to foreknowledge. That's what the Bible says. If God just picked and chose who He wanted then He would be unjust and unfair. THAT IS NOT MY GOD! So would I have to tell somebody, "you were just one of the ones God chose to go to hell." If God picked then there is no need for missionaries, evangelists, preachers, going on visitation, and passing out tracts, because "one way or another they'll get to heaven because God chose them." Here's what God said about this:

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

The Bible says that when the lost are judged in the end that "they shall be without excuse." Let's face it they would have an excuse and it would probably go like this, "how come You didn't give the gift of grace to me but you gave it to him, he's no better than me, were both sinners aren't we?"
Do you see the point I'm trying to make?

Your viewpoint presents my God as being unfair. My Bible says:

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

In other words He is fair to all. He doesn't love a Jew more than a Gentile, or a Frenchman more than an American.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

This verse above backs up what I was saying earlier, about how they shall be without excuse. God gives some flicker of Light (Jesus) to everyone so that everyone will have a chance to accept Him as Saviour. If He picked the people then why did He give the Light to every man?

what i am saying is the phrase there is nothing you have to do all you have to do is believe is contradicting it's self .
if we are dead in tresspasses and sin , how can we do anything ?
i don't believe that our belief causes us to get salvation , its a fruit , of God taking the heart of stone out and giving you a heart of flesh . i don't believe we obtain eternal salvation by works , and faith is something you do . i believe God chooses us then puts a new heart in us so we are able to believe.

Jn.5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

pay very close attention to the grammer , is it past , present or future tense.
he that heareth and believeth , [hath] [ past tense ] eternal life you don't hear and believe to get it , [ but is passed ] he's already passed from death to life.
if you are hearing and believing you already have eternal life.

Rom.5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


if we say it takes the sinners obedience and the Obedience of Jesus then it would be by the obedience of two.

Jn.15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit , and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

we don't choose God he chooses us. [ natural man there is none that doeth good ] , chosing God would be doing something good .

Gal.5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

faith or belief is a fruit of the Spirit , God chooses us then puts his Spirit in us so that we can believe. we are not giving all the glory to God where it belongs when we say man can save himself by his belief . i hope that answers your questions.
jim

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by grace to me

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

if we say it takes the sinners obedience and the Obedience of Jesus then it would be by the obedience of two.

Jn.15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit , and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

we don't choose God he chooses us. [ natural man there is none that doeth good ] , chosing God would be doing something good .

Wasn't Judas one of those spoken to in John 15.16? Are you sure you want to make an application to salvation with that verse?

And why do you treat faith as "doing something good?" Faith is not a work. Romans ch. 4 makes that very clear.

You also seem to be confounding righteousness imputed with works. Romans 4 makes it clear that righteousness imputed is not due to works nor is that righteousness from man. You have created a contradiction that does not exist.

And why do you treat faith as "doing something good?" Faith is not a work. Romans ch. 4 makes that very clear.

faith is a work and so is love they are something you do.

1 thess.1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;


Gal.5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

2 Thess.1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:


you see how the Word of God defines faith for us , by dictionary definition a work is something you do.
man wants desperatly to have a part in his salvation but Jesus did it all .by the righteousness of one .

[pbiwolski]

God absolutely hates sinners. Whether it be "the workers of iniquity," or "he that soweth discord among the brethren," "God is angry with the wicked every day." "He that believeth not is condemned ALREADY" and "the wrath of God abideth (present tense) on him." (John 3:18,36)
God's love however, shows up in two ways in the Bible. The first, and most prevelant, is at Calvary. Read carefully Gal.2:20, Rom.5:8, I John 3:16,4:9-10, Eph. 5:1, etc. Each time God's love is mentioned it is connected with giving His Son. Apart from Calvary, no sinner can know God's love, but only His wrath. Secondly, God's love is displayed to believers, or His children. See I John 3:1 and others. To the "son" "God is love," but to the sinner "our God is a consuming fire."
Read carefully Heb. 12:6-8 and notice the son is loved, but not the "bastard."

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by grace to me

you see how the Word of God defines faith for us , by dictionary definition a work is something you do.

But you were associating faith with righteousness.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

man wants desperatly to have a part in his salvation but Jesus did it all .by the righteousness of one .

Well, amen to that. However, as Romans 4:5 explicitly says, believing is not working.

There is more than one kind of faith in Scripture. Romans 4 plainly teaches that the faith of mere belief is not work. "To him that worketh not, but believeth on him." Calvinism wants to turn belief into a work, but the Bible plainly says it is not.

Jn.15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit , and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

we don't choose God he chooses us.

This verse in context was choosing the disciples for ministry not salvation

Eph. 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world , that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

This verse in context is teaching after salvation. When we are saved we become holy and without blame before him in love. It is not a choosing to salvation. It is what we get because of Salvation.This was God's great plan before the foundations of the world. That whosoever believes would become.

Salvation is simple "LOOK AND LIVE" OBEDIENCE.

Christ says Come, Calvin says you can't.


Ploughboy