[kevinvw]

I'm sure there are people who've probably heard this before, and I did a search and didn't find anything conclusive without searching through hundreds of posts wasting time I don't have.

A preacher at my church brought up a verse which seems to clearly refute the gap theory (I'm still very undecided on the matter, and still leaning more towards the gap theory), but I was wondering what you guys think on the matter.

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The only problems I see with saying this verse is a crystal clear refutation is the fact that it really isn't clear that Gen 1:1 & 2 are included in the first day and the fact that darkness exists before God makes the light, and we aren't told when the deep is made. It also doesn't say THE heaven or THE earth. It just says heaven (which heaven is it? first, second, third?), and it just says earth, which could easily just be dry ground, and sea, which, like earth, could just be the water that was brought into one place on THE earth. I also know about the passage in 2 Peter 3, which is kind of a murky passage as well, but does give a lot more support for the gap theory than it does for saying that verses 5 & 6 refer to the flood of Gen 7, because the earth during the flood was covered in water, not overflowed with water, being IN and OUT of it, and the obvious implications of the heaven and earth of old, the heaven and earth that are now, and the new heaven and earth.

I realize i just gave most of the major refutations that actually work on both sides of the argument. I don't consider Satan's fall and the sons of God one because there was, at the most, 130 years before the fall of Adam, also Ruckman's case on the meaning behind the implications of the word worlds in Hebrews 1:2 and 11:3 aren't that great either, but I completely understand why he would have said it. I was wondering if any of you guys had anything else on the subject.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by kevinvw

The only problems I see with saying this verse is a crystal clear refutation is the fact that it really isn't clear that Gen 1:1 & 2 are included in the first day....

...and the fact that darkness exists before God makes the light, and we aren't told when the deep is made.

It also doesn't say THE heaven or THE earth. It just says heaven (which heaven is it? first, second, third?), and it just says earth, which could easily just be dry ground, and sea, which, like earth, could just be the water that was brought into one place on THE earth.

Brother Kevin, please forgive my “uneducated” answer. I’ve not read any material on the GAP theory, believe it or not, so my understanding is from what I perceive the scriptures to teach, not from well learned men. Here it goes.

Personally, I believe verses 1-5 represent one day.

Genesis 1:1-5 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Here’s why.

Genesis 1:1 says, of course, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”

Genesis 1:31 says, “And God saw every thing that he had made [to include the heaven and the earth], and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”

Genesis 2:3 says, “And God blessed the seventh day, [which comes after day six ] and sanctified it: [it, referring to the seventh day] because that in it [it, referring to the seventh day] he had rested from all his work [all His work to include the work in the beginning when He created the heaven and the earth] which God created and made [including the heaven and the earth]”

Based on my understanding of scripture, I simply believe that “all his work” which “God created and made,” to include the “heaven and the earth” which, again “God created, in the beginning” which He “rested from” on the “seventh day” was very good.

You wrote referring to Exodus 20:11, "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." The only problems I see with saying this verse is a crystal clear refutation is the fact that it really isn't clear that Gen 1:1 & 2 are included in the first day....

That's true, it's not clear. So rather than speculate, I take what scripture does give us. If you know of any other scriptures that infer a GAP existed between “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” and “…God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made,” I’m open to it.

You also wrote: ...and we aren't told when the deep is made. It also doesn't say THE heaven or THE earth. It just says heaven (which heaven is it? first, second, third?), and it just says earth, which could easily just be dry ground, and sea, which, like earth, could just be the water that was brought into one place on THE earth.

Your right, we’re not told when the "deep" is made. The scripture simply says, in Genesis 1:2, “And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.”

Evidently, when, "in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth", it included the “deep” and the “waters.” Obviously, God did not divide something that was not already there. And scripture does not clarify a separate time the “deep” and “waters” were created.


Based on this, my conclusion is that the deep and the waters were included when “in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” and on the second day “…God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day” (Genesis 1:7-8). Do you know of any other scriptures that support a GAP of time?

[Josh]

Amen Brother Forrest! Many Gap supporters like to use Jeremiah 4:23-28 as a descriptive of something that happened between Genesis 1:1 & 1:2.

Jeremaih 4:23-28, I beheld the earth, and, lo, [it was] without form, and void; and the heavens, and they [had] no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, [there was] no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place [was] a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, [and] by his fierce anger. For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken [it], I have purposed [it], and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

It's evident, however(to me at least), that these verses are a vision of Jeremiah of the coming judgement of the Lord on Israel, which was so severe as to be likened to the state of the earth just after creation. Verses 29-31 make this very clear.

Jeremiah 4:29-31, The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city [shall be] forsaken, and not a man dwell therein. And [when] thou [art] spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; [thy] lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life. For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, [and] the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, [that] bewaileth herself, [that] spreadeth her hands, [saying], Woe [is] me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.

In Christ,
Josh

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Josh

Amen Brother Forrest! Many Gap supporters like to use Jeremiah 4:23-28 as a descriptive of something that happened between Genesis 1:1 & 1:2.

Jeremaih 4:23-28, I beheld the earth, and, lo, [it was] without form, and void; and the heavens, and they [had] no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, [there was] no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place [was] a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, [and] by his fierce anger. For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken [it], I have purposed [it], and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

It's evident, however(to me at least), that these verses are a vision of Jeremiah of the coming judgement of the Lord on Israel, which was so severe as to be likened to the state of the earth just after creation. Verses 29-31 make this very clear.

Jeremiah 4:29-31, The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city [shall be] forsaken, and not a man dwell therein. And [when] thou [art] spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; [thy] lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life. For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, [and] the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, [that] bewaileth herself, [that] spreadeth her hands, [saying], Woe [is] me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.

In Christ,
Josh

It's evident, however(to me at least), that these verses are a vision of Jeremiah of the coming judgement of the Lord on Israel, which was so severe as to be likened to the state of the earth just after creation. Verses 29-31 make this very clear.

I agree with you. Not to mention the fact that "...all the birds of the heavens were fled...the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities...land shall be desolate [the words "shall be" are future tense denoting something already existed] yet will I not make a full end.

[kevinvw]

Thank you brother Forrest for your post. It definitely helped me out.

Also, I know about Jer 4:23, and it definitely is a future prophecy. Some people would argue though, that because the Holy Spirit used the same phrase in Jer 4, right after a disaster, that it would infer a disaster happened between Gen 1:1 and 1:2. I agree that the Holy Spirit uses certain phrases throughout scripture to denote the same certain things, but I'm not sure if the opposite is ever true. I guess it would be in this case at least if God did create everything that has ever existed 6,000 years ago in 6 days.

[MC1171611]

I don't have a whole lot of time to get into this, being that I'm running on 3-4 hours of sleep and I have to work at 11 tonight (EST). However, there are a few points that were missed in this whole thing: people have a tendency to have a belief and stick to it, finding verses and explaining them to fit their belief. 'Tis a dangerous thing to do.

#1

Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

How many heavens? The plural form of that word doesn't show up until Genesis 2:

Gen. 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen. 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Therefore, if we're going to take the WORDS of God at face value, God only created ONE heaven in Genesis 1:1. We know from 2 Corinthians 12:2 that there are THREE heavens: the atmosphere, outer space, and God's throne (or Heaven). Therefore, if there is no gap between verses 1 and 2, then either the wording is wrong, or you have to come up with two more heavens being created sometime after Genesis 1:2.

#2

Gen. 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

If you'll look at what the firmament is, you'll see that it's the atmosphere: the birds fly in the midst of the firmament (Gen. 1:20); and space (Gen. 1:14-15). Strikingly, the firmament, one of the most important parts of our ecology, was not regarded by God as "good" until the final overlook and declaration that it was all good. Everything else is specifically called good except this one thing; why would that be?

Eph. 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

That firmament is under the dominion of someone else; THAT'S why God didn't call it good.

#3

Gen. 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Notice the wording: eastward IN Eden. Eden is a region; there was a garden placed within that region. The garden itself was not called Eden, as is customary to say. Garden IN Eden, not garden OF Eden. Now watch carefully.

Ezek. 31:9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.

(emphasis mine)

And here's the bad guy:

Ezek. 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Lucifer inhabited a Garden CALLED Eden; this was not a garden IN Eden, this is a garden CALLED Eden. Two different things; things that are different are not the same. There's a lot more; this always leads to a study on Lucifer that's rather mind-boggling, but now I must shower, take a nap, and get ready for work.

God bless.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by MC1171611

I don't have a whole lot of time to get into this, being that I'm running on 3-4 hours of sleep and I have to work at 11 tonight (EST). However, there are a few points that were missed in this whole thing: people have a tendency to have a belief and stick to it, finding verses and explaining them to fit their belief. 'Tis a dangerous thing to do.

#1

Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

How many heavens? The plural form of that word doesn't show up until Genesis 2:

Gen. 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen. 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Therefore, if we're going to take the WORDS of God at face value, God only created ONE heaven in Genesis 1:1. We know from 2 Corinthians 12:2 that there are THREE heavens: the atmosphere, outer space, and God's throne (or Heaven). Therefore, if there is no gap between verses 1 and 2, then either the wording is wrong, or you have to come up with two more heavens being created sometime after Genesis 1:2.

#2

Gen. 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

If you'll look at what the firmament is, you'll see that it's the atmosphere: the birds fly in the midst of the firmament (Gen. 1:20); and space (Gen. 1:14-15). Strikingly, the firmament, one of the most important parts of our ecology, was not regarded by God as "good" until the final overlook and declaration that it was all good. Everything else is specifically called good except this one thing; why would that be?

Eph. 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

That firmament is under the dominion of someone else; THAT'S why God didn't call it good.

God bless.

It appears to me, Brother Vince, after examination of the WORDS at face value, God did some “creating” and “dividing” in the six days recorded in chapter one, prior to getting to chapter two. He created both the “heaven” and the “heavens” during the six days.

DAY ONE

Ge 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven [which heaven?] and the earth. [Is this when you believe a GAP of time occurs? Between verse one and two? If so, what WORDS support that?]
Ge 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Ge 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Ge 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Ge 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. [Examining the WORDS at face value, there is no written evidence of a GAP in time.]

DAY TWO

Ge 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Ge 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Ge 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven [which heaven?]. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

DAY THREE

Ge 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven [which heaven?] be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Ge 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
Ge 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Ge 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Ge 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

DAY FOUR

Ge 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven [which heaven?] to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Ge 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven [which heaven?] to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Ge 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Ge 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven [which heaven?] to give light upon the earth,
Ge 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Ge 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

DAY FIVE

Ge 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven [which heaven?].
Ge 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Ge 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
Ge 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

DAY SIX

Ge 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Ge 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Ge 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Ge 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Ge 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Ge 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Ge 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens [which heavens? After careful examination of the WORDS, I think it was the "heaven" and "heavens" He created in chapter one, starting from the beginning.] and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

You wrote: Strikingly, the firmament, one of the most important parts of our ecology, was not regarded by God as "good" until the final overlook and declaration that it was all good. Everything else is specifically called good except this one thing; why would that be?

I do not know why it’s not called good until verse 31, I just know after examination of the WORDS at face value, God calls it very good. “And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”

In closing, you are exactly right, Brother, people have a tendency to have a belief and stick to it, finding verses and explaining them to fit their belief. 'Tis a dangerous thing to do.

Originally Posted by MC1171611

I don't have a whole lot of time to get into this, being that I'm running on 3-4 hours of sleep and I have to work at 11 tonight (EST). However, there are a few points that were missed in this whole thing: people have a tendency to have a belief and stick to it, finding verses and explaining them to fit their belief. 'Tis a dangerous thing to do.

#1

Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

How many heavens? The plural form of that word doesn't show up until Genesis 2:

Gen. 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen. 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Therefore, if we're going to take the WORDS of God at face value, God only created ONE heaven in Genesis 1:1. We know from 2 Corinthians 12:2 that there are THREE heavens: the atmosphere, outer space, and God's throne (or Heaven). Therefore, if there is no gap between verses 1 and 2, then either the wording is wrong, or you have to come up with two more heavens being created sometime after Genesis 1:2.

#2

Gen. 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

If you'll look at what the firmament is, you'll see that it's the atmosphere: the birds fly in the midst of the firmament (Gen. 1:20); and space (Gen. 1:14-15). Strikingly, the firmament, one of the most important parts of our ecology, was not regarded by God as "good" until the final overlook and declaration that it was all good. Everything else is specifically called good except this one thing; why would that be?

Eph. 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

That firmament is under the dominion of someone else; THAT'S why God didn't call it good.

#3

Gen. 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Notice the wording: eastward IN Eden. Eden is a region; there was a garden placed within that region. The garden itself was not called Eden, as is customary to say. Garden IN Eden, not garden OF Eden. Now watch carefully.

Ezek. 31:9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.

(emphasis mine)

And here's the bad guy:

Ezek. 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Lucifer inhabited a Garden CALLED Eden; this was not a garden IN Eden, this is a garden CALLED Eden. Two different things; things that are different are not the same. There's a lot more; this always leads to a study on Lucifer that's rather mind-boggling, but now I must shower, take a nap, and get ready for work.

God bless.

Excellent post! More, more!

[MC1171611]

When I was first introduced to true Rightly Dividing, I was about 13 years old. My parents bought a copy of One Book Rightly Divided from Dr. Bill Grady, who strongly recommended it. After I read through that book, my spiritual understanding was opened to the incredible depth of the Scriptures. Dr. Stauffer doesn't address the Gap theory in depth, or at all if memory serves me correctly, so at that point I was still firmly set in agreement with men like Kent Hovind and Ken Ham who taught that the Gap was simply an attempt to reconcile the Bible and the Genesis account of Creation with the humanistic theories of Evolution. Needless to say, I was, as they are, very very wrong on that point.

Some people do point to Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 and attempt to fit evolution into it, but a simple reading of the Scriptures proves that God never used "Natural Selection" or "evolution" to bring about the Creation. When God finished in Genesis 1:31, the Creation that had taken Him but six days to complete was whole, mature and finished. He did not use "Survival of the Fittest" or any nonsense like that to create the earth: the creation of Genesis 1:3-31 (regardless of your stance on the Gap, the actual creation of everything besides the earth itself began in verse 3) was "very good" like God said, without the necessity of any natural processes.

In 2003, my family and I took a trip to Dillon Montana to visit my aunt and uncle and attend Bro. Sturgeon's Big Sky Camp Meeting. God did some miraculous things in my family at that meeting; He gave my dad some direction and started us on the path that led us to where we are today as a family (not to mention Kathie and myself getting together!). While there, I had a discussion with a man in the church (whom we knew from a church we had attended in Missouri) about the Gap "theory." I gave him my pre-digested response about evolution and whatnot, and he explained that the Gap was nothing of the sort. He pointed out the fact that God did not view the firmament as being good when He had created it, and that sparked my curiosity. After reading a lot of Scripture and talking to a few different people about it, I began to change my stance on the issue. I've since come completely around to where I understand the Dispensational significance of the Gap, and its prophetic parallels. While some of those specifics are deep and somewhat clouded and I won't dig that deeply into the topic, there is enough valid Scripture to show that there have been, in fact, two Creations: the third and final Creation is spoken of in Revelation 21 (remember, God almost always works in threes and sevens).


Ok, that was the introduction. I'll try to address the "heaven/s" thing more specifically here. I just wanted to point out that I don't have a "pre-conceived" doctrine that I'm trying to defend: I was originally an "anti-gapper" to the hilt, but God showed me otherwise through His word.

When you find the same exact word or phrase used the same way in two different places about two different things, it's imperative that the reader note that and allow God to show the similarities. Genesis 1:2 and Jeremiah 4:23 parallel almost perfectly: the subject in both sentences is the earth, and in both places it is referred to as "without form, and void;" even to the point of the exact same usage and punctuation!! Were that to appear anywhere else in the Bible, anyone would simply accept it as Biblical truth and a God-given cross-reference. However, when it comes to a "questionable" teaching or doctrine, the "brethren" get skittish and look for a way out.

Gen. 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Jer. 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Now understandably, the Jeremiah reference is speaking directly of the destruction of Jerusalem, prophetically occurring at the end of the Tribulation; from what I recall (end-times prophecy is not my strong suit), this happens right before the destruction by fire and re-creation of the earth spoken of in Revelation 21 and 2 Peter 3. However, as Bible Believers we know that the Bible always has multiple applications, so this should not be an exception. As I showed with my topic on Inspiration (discussion on that should be directed to that thread so as not to derail this one), the same word or phrase used in two different places almost certainly defines and cross-references itself.

Unarguably, Genesis 1:2 refers to the earth right before God creates the current population of flora and fauna, and Jeremiah 4:23 refers to a place and time of destruction, likely before God recreates it. Both places imply previous existence of something; God didn't simply create a huge ball of water-covered mud floating in water. Somehow it got that way, as Genesis 1:2 speaks of something that is in a state of destruction (a la Jer. 4:23). By the way, "without form, and void" does NOT mean "unformed and unfilled": it means "without form, and void." therefore, what God had made was at that point "without form, and void." Claiming that God created something that was "without form, and void" is rather baseless: you'll not find anywhere else that God created something that was immediately "without form, and void."

Saying that, let's get back to the "heaven/s" quandary. Without getting into the whole process of Creation, the fall of Lucifer, the destruction of Eden, and the recreation (I'll save that for another time ), I want to address Bro. Forrest's objections.

Without a "Gap," you have a God who created a "without form, and void" mudball, and one "heaven," and then decided "Whoops, I needed three of those!" and created two more. I have a God that created a perfect paradise for the Sons of God (Job 38:4-7) which was subsequently destroyed in a cataclysmic, supernatural rebellion, which took His 4-Dimensional, Divine Creation (Gen. 1:1, Eph. 3:18) and degraded it into our current 3-Dimensional universe; as a result, God's throne (Heaven) was still 4D (Eph. 3:18) but the remainder was divided into two parts (2 - number of division) which we know as "space" and the atmosphere: He then recreated the demolished earth (Gen. 1:2) into a beautiful planet where He placed the king to rule His creation: Adam.

On the one hand you have a slightly absentminded God who says one thing ("heaven," singular) and then makes three things in almost the same breath, and somehow gets a kick out of making broken things and then making mud pies. On the other hand, you have a God that is powerful and sovereign, Who gives His creatures the Free Will to serve Him or rebel, and Who deigns to give His creature (man) the rule ("dominion," Gen. 1:26, 28) over His beautiful Creation; this God also works in threes, as this is the second Creation, and looking forward to the third where He will give His chosen people the entire universe for their habitation.

These topics are fun.

[Josh]

Hmm... You say that God first created the heaven and the earth, then destroyed it, then re-created it and the other heavens. But Genesis 2:4 says, "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens". Seems the heavens were made in the same day as the earth.