[swordsman]

Hi, I was just reading a post and someone touched on marriage and divorce as far as being able to pastor.
Here in the south the book that all the "brethren" use is "The Home" by Stinnett Ballew. This work is the main supporter for the can't preach if you are double married camp.

A couple of years ago a Pastor Karl Baker wrote a blistering and quite Biblical rebuttal of that position. It is a EXCELLENT book that refutes (with scripture) the divorced = never pastor or lead viewpoint.

I believe the book is $15.00 and can be ordered only through the church.

I am not a member of this church, just friends. The church is to far from my home.

Here is a link to a photo of the cover:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/59027007@N00/

Calvary Baptist Church
Karl Baker
256 Old Savannah Hwy
Burton SC 29906
803-525-6426

Bro. Baker is a graduate of PBI and has been pastoring over 20 years.

[MC1171611]

1 Corinthians 7:25 Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.
26 I suppose therefore that this is good for the present distress, I say, that it is good for a man so to be.
27 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.
28 But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you.

Seems pretty clear-cut to me, not to mention that the Book says "husband of one wife," not "having only one wife his entire life." I find it absolutely ridiculous that people get hung up on this issue; it's completely a non-issue!! The Bible is clear; it's only self-righteous people that want to twist the Scriptures to justify their pride.

Originally Posted by MC1171611

Seems pretty clear-cut to me, not to mention that the Book says "husband of one wife," not "having only one wife his entire life." I find it absolutely ridiculous that people get hung up on this issue; it's completely a non-issue!! The Bible is clear; it's only self-righteous people that want to twist the Scriptures to justify their pride.

That's it, exactly. Baseball used to be called "the American pasttime;" but it seems that self-righteous Pharisaism is the favorite pasttime of many "fundamentalists."

Don't get me started on this stuff. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry!

[scott]

1 Timothy 3:1-5 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

I understand and realize that every Ruckmanite here is going to take the position of the first three posts [VR, I'm not trying to get you started]; [I begin also by saying, although I'm not a "Ruckmanite", I do enjoy listening to his materials, a very learned man] but, I'm going to take the common sense approach....first of all, divorce is not the unforgiveable sin....secondly, there is a big difference [as I see it] between being a preacher, evangelist or a pastor....A man that is pastoring a Church should be held to higher standards, else there wouldn't be these qualifications given [any time there are qualifications, that means there can be disqualifications]....I'm not mentioning the Scriptures concerning divorce and remarriage being adultery or husband of one wife in this discussion, but how about the above scriptures concerning "ruling his own house"??....does switching wives prove that a man can rule his house well?? When a man stands behind a pulpit as pastor and has had marriages in his own life, is he not a stumbling block to any couple who may be having marriage problems?? [O I guess no Christians have marriage troubles??]....maybe I'm looking at this backwards, maybe a man that is divorced and has had several marriages would attract the same, I don't know....but how could he give heart felt advise to the young couple having marriage problems?? By saying he knows what they're going through?? That would be a little hypocritical because he's divorced twice.....I also am a realist and if a man has a calling from God [see Hosea] nothing I say or do or anyone could say or do can stop that man.....having said that, I know this won't be the popular approach because most of you are "Ruckmanites" but I close by saying that the world is getting churchy and the church is getting worldly and we have the same type of synchronocity that Constantine implanted happening all over again....Brothers and sisters we need to be different than the world......God bless....Scott

[George]

"I understand and realize that every Ruckmanite here is going to take the position of the first three posts [VR, I'm not trying to get you started];

Aloha brother Scott,

I’m a bit disappointed that your “intro” was little bit “antagonistic” (i.e. “Ruckmanites”). There are so few genuine Bible believers left in the world, that unless obvious sin or heresy is involved, we should be seeking to edify one another and building each other up, instead of taking “cheap shots” (name-calling) at some of the brethren that may not see “eye to eye” with you.

Just for the record:

Brother Ruckman's first wife (they married before he got saved), with whom he had five children, "abandoned" him (after 14 years of marriage) after he got saved and called to preach. Should he "abandon" his "calling" because his wife was unwilling to follow him?

After ten years brother Ruckman married the sister of his assistant pastor, and was married for another fourteen years, when his second wife "abandoned" him when she "ran off" with a cop from his congregation. Again - should a brother in Christ, who is obviously called to preach and teach God's word, "abandon" his calling because of an "unfaithful" wife? Hmmm?

I have been blessed of God that my wife of 47 years has not been like brother Ruckman's first two wives (and there is no doubt, that on occasion, I may have given her a reason to leave me), but, just because I have been blessed with a Proverbs 31 wife, doesn’t mean that all of the brethren have been as fortunate as myself (and the same may go for a sister in Christ, who has been “abandoned” by a no-good husband).

I have been a Christian for 50 years, and have never heard or seen any man who is as capable (“gifted”) as brother Peter Ruckman when it comes to teaching the word of God. Now that doesn’t mean that I agree with everything that he teaches, nor am I always in agreement with his “response” to some of the brethren for what he may perceive as their unfaithfulness to the King James Bible.

But having said that I think it is both unfair and unjust for Christians (especially in “leadership” roles) to continually engage in destructive criticism of a fellow brother in Christ, who God has used mightily in the preservation of His Holy word. (And I sometimes wonder if there isn’t maybe just “little bit” of jealousy and envy going on).

Unless a man of God is living in open sin and rebellion against God, or unless a man called of God falls into a clear heresy, I for one am going to give him “a pass”, when it comes to these matters, and leave it up to Almighty God to judge him and his ministry at the Judgment Seat of Christ – I’ve got a whole lot more concern about my service to God, to concern myself about another man’s ministry!

Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

[MC1171611]

I've said before that God uses people that Baptists don't think He should, to do things they don't think He should use them for. Also, people tend to get hung up on attacking or attempting to disqualify Doc when instead we should give glory to God for how He's used the man this whole time. Satan has gotten so many "funnymentalists" sidetracked, shooting their own people. He's an imperfect general in the Christian army, but show me one soldier that's really perfect. Quit shootin' the good guys and FIGHT for cryin' out loud!!

Originally Posted by scott

I'm not mentioning the Scriptures concerning divorce and remarriage being adultery or husband of one wife in this discussion, but how about the above scriptures concerning "ruling his own house"??

I think that's a very valid question. And, although I'm a Ruckmanite (and a divorced Ruckmanite, at that), I find little to dispute in your very good post.

Two points come to mind, however:

Please do not assume that all "Ruckmanites" accept Dr. Ruckman's teachings on this issue. I do, but many do not. And, with my marital history, I am not in the best position to argue the point.

Also: if I take exception to anything in your post, it's the term "switching wives." It's not usually that callous and cavalier a process, dear brother. You're talking about Bible believers, not Hollywood bed-hoppers. If some of us have divorced and remarried, it is not because we took a low view of marriage, or thought that a "switch" was a legitimate option.

Life's a little more complicated than that.

[scott]

Originally Posted by George

Aloha brother Scott,

I’m a bit disappointed that your “intro” was little bit “antagonistic” (i.e. “Ruckmanites”). There are so few genuine Bible believers left in the world, that unless obvious sin or heresy is involved, we should be seeking to edify one another and building each other up, instead of taking “cheap shots” (name-calling) at some of the brethren that may not see “eye to eye” with you.

Just for the record:

Brother Ruckman's first wife (they married before he got saved), with whom he had five children, "abandoned" him (after 14 years of marriage) after he got saved and called to preach. Should he "abandon" his "calling" because his wife was unwilling to follow him?

After ten years brother Ruckman married the sister of his assistant pastor, and was married for another fourteen years, when his second wife "abandoned" him when she "ran off" with a cop from his congregation. Again - should a brother in Christ, who is obviously called to preach and teach God's word, "abandon" his calling because of an "unfaithful" wife? Hmmm?

I have been blessed of God that my wife of 47 years has not been like brother Ruckman's first two wives (and there is no doubt, that on occasion, I may have given her a reason to leave me), but, just because I have been blessed with a Proverbs 31 wife, doesn’t mean that all of the brethren have been as fortunate as myself (and the same may go for a sister in Christ, who has been “abandoned” by a no-good husband).

I have been a Christian for 50 years, and have never heard or seen any man who is as capable (“gifted”) as brother Peter Ruckman when it comes to teaching the word of God. Now that doesn’t mean that I agree with everything that he teaches, nor am I always in agreement with his “response” to some of the brethren for what he may perceive as their unfaithfulness to the King James Bible.

But having said that I think it is both unfair and unjust for Christians (especially in “leadership” roles) to continually engage in destructive criticism of a fellow brother in Christ, who God has used mightily in the preservation of His Holy word. (And I sometimes wonder if there isn’t maybe just “little bit” of jealousy and envy going on).

Unless a man of God is living in open sin and rebellion against God, or unless a man called of God falls into a clear heresy, I for one am going to give him “a pass”, when it comes to these matters, and leave it up to Almighty God to judge him and his ministry at the Judgment Seat of Christ – I’ve got a whole lot more concern about my service to God, to concern myself about another man’s ministry!

Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Hello, George....I appreciate your thoughts, I don't take them personally, and I did not mean "Ruckmanite" in a derogatory sense [I thought you guys were proud to be called that]. I was not taking any cheap shots, I'm not that kind of person....The point in the thread [which, this subject been gone over before when this forum was first established ][ah, remembering when Jerry was here] was divorce and remarriage and you took my response as a shot at Dr. Ruckman....As I stated, I'm a realist and all of you that embrace Dr. Ruckman are going to defend divorce and remarriage even in the pastors role [am I wrong there?]....But the Scriptures I used were in the KJV and whether I'm being a smarty or not, you decide, but the questions I raised [which you did not answer] are valid [I'm not going to restate them, just reread them]....And, lastly, your dander seemed to be up [I meant no harm] and you even seem to imply that I was judging someone?? I don't know where that was in my post, but I appologize if you feel that way. I always enjoy reading your posts, George, but that doesn't mean we can't "agree to disagree" on this issue.....God bless....Scott

[scott]

Originally Posted by Vendetta Ride

I think that's a very valid question. And, although I'm a Ruckmanite (and a divorced Ruckmanite, at that), I find little to dispute in your very good post.

Two points come to mind, however:

Please do not assume that all "Ruckmanites" accept Dr. Ruckman's teachings on this issue. I do, but many do not. And, with my marital history, I am not in the best position to argue the point.

Also: if I take exception to anything in your post, it's the term "switching wives." It's not usually that callous and cavalier a process, dear brother. You're talking about Bible believers, not Hollywood bed-hoppers. If some of us have divorced and remarried, it is not because we took a low view of marriage, or thought that a "switch" was a legitimate option.

Life's a little more complicated than that.

Brother, I enjoy reading your posts and your point is well taken, that phrase was not meant to be as "loose" as it sounded, and in fact I can see why one would think I was overly cruel with the statement, I used the phrase in contrast with a well ruled house.... I would like to reiterate that if a man has a calling, it makes no difference what I think period end of story....God bless....Scott

[MC1171611]

Originally Posted by scott

Brother, I enjoy reading your posts and your point is well taken, that phrase was not meant to be as "loose" as it sounded, and in fact I can see why one would think I was overly cruel with the statement, I used the phrase in contrast with a well ruled house.... I would like to reiterate that if a man has a calling, it makes no difference what I think period end of story....God bless....Scott

Bro. Scott, I must say I appreciate your spirit in the matter. It's a tough topic to discuss, and in the amount of times I've talked about it with different people, almost every time someone winds up making pointed, derogatory comments about Doc or someone else (usually Doc; they hate his guts) in the intent to make us "Ruckmanites" get hot under the collar and retaliate.

Thank you for your attitude about this.