[Diligent]

Here's another interesting verse to consider (as if Luke 1 weren't enough with John, less than two months conceived, responded to the presence of his Saviour who was only an embryo of a few days):

Judges 13:7 But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.

How many humans without spirits or living souls does the Bible say are a "child... to God?"

And this:

Isaiah 49:1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

Or this:

Jeremiah 20:17 Because he slew me not from the womb; or that my mother might have been my grave, and her womb to be always great with me.

I read through the list of verses regarding spirit and breath. I still didn't see any that said when in human development the spirit is given to a man. Since the Bible more than once assigns human personality traits and descriptions to the unborn, is it not prudent to start with the assumption that the spirit is there unless otherwise contradicted?

[Brother Tim]

Just a slight correction to the timeline:

Luke 1:35-36 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

Just a slight correction to the timeline:

Whoops. Thanks Tim. I misread it as six weeks, not six months as it should be.

Originally Posted by Diligent

Here's another interesting verse to consider (as if Luke 1 weren't enough with John, less than two months conceived, responded to the presence of his Saviour who was only an embryo of a few days):

Judges 13:7 But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.

How many humans without spirits or living souls does the Bible say are a "child... to God?"

And this:

Isaiah 49:1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

Or this:

Jeremiah 20:17 Because he slew me not from the womb; or that my mother might have been my grave, and her womb to be always great with me.

I read through the list of verses regarding spirit and breath. I still didn't see any that said when in human development the spirit is given to a man. Since the Bible more than once assigns human personality traits and descriptions to the unborn, is it not prudent to start with the assumption that the spirit is there unless otherwise contradicted?

Well this is only my second post, but I wanted to say I am impressed with your comments on this issue Diligent. Excellent verses, and well said.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by drbible1611

Does a person become a living soul at:

1. Conception
2. Sometime during gestation
3. At Birth?

I look forward to your comments!

Brother George made an observation on another thread titled, "Hall of Shame" on post #19 which motivated me to do some searches. He wrote in part:

Here is something for you to check out:

Find me one verse out of the approximately 498 verses on and about the soul, where it demonstrates that a babe within a womb possesses a soul (just one). Before I undertook this Post I reviewed all 498 verses with the word soul (souls) in them (thanks to SwordSearcher!) - Every place where the word soul (or souls) shows up in the Bible is always referring to someone who has already been born and is alive and existing in the flesh {And who, by the way, also possesses a “spirit”, a heart, a mind, and a conscience}. I cannot find a single verse where the word soul is applied to an unborn child {Check it out. Run the verses, don’t take my word for it.}

IF the Bible is its own best dictionary, then HOW the word soul (souls) is used (and WHAT the word soul (souls) describes) should define what a soul is – shouldn’t it? Then why isn’t there one verse in the entire Bible where the word “soul” is used to describe a baby within the womb?

I also could not find a verse where the word "soul" is applied to an unborn child. My search of the scriptures did, however, raise some questions to think about. Just digging deeper in the word! Here is what I discovered:

• No one on this thread (I don’t believe) has said a child in the womb is not alive, so that's certainly not the issue. Scripture does, however, clarify and seem to teach that the soul is directly related to, and associated with life. No life, no soul.

Genesis 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin. Notice the word says her "soul" was departing, not her breath.

1 Kings 17:17-23 And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him. [No life, breath, or heart beat.] And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son? And he said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed. And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son? And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived. And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth.

Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

My question is this. Is life specifically limited to only the life outside the womb, of those who breathe? Or, is it is also related to the life of a child who is still in the womb, even though they are not breathing air?

• Scripture also identifies the soul as existing after physical life and breath has ceased. The soul does not cease to exist when “breath” does.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Since in scripture the soul is not limited to and exists only in “physical life,” can we conclude that the soul does indeed exist even though “physical breath” has stopped? If the soul does indeed exist after death, how could we conclude a baby in the womb, who has life, does not possess a soul?

• I guess we all understand the doctrine that God does not possess a soul as we do. Jesus said in John 4:24, “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” However, scripture seems to also clearly identify God as having a soul.

Jeremiah 5:9 Shall I not visit for these things? saith the LORD: and shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this?

Jeremiah 32:41 Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.

My observation and question is this. Since humankind is created in God’s own image, referring to the fact humankind is also tripartite, composed of three parts, (spirit, soul, body), when does a human who is in the image of God, actually become complete? While in the womb or out of the womb?

To the comments also made by Brother George, "The one issue is: WHEN DOES THE SOUL BEGIN? {An issue that has been argued and debated by "theologians" and genuine Bible believers for centuries - and never "settled" I might add..." I'll agree with a hearty, amen!

[drbible1611]

If a person becomes a LIVING SOUL at conception what about a frozen embryo?

If the human soul is that part of a human that allows the person to be aware of their surroundings through the FIVE senses, is a ANENCEPHALIC baby (has a brain stem but no upper brain) a LIVING soul?

Jesus Christ said 'Ye must be born again'

He didn't say 'Ye must be conceived again'!

Just some thoughts to ponder on.

[KJBPrincess]

Originally Posted by drbible1611

If a person becomes a LIVING SOUL at conception what about a frozen embryo?

If the human soul is that part of a human that allows the person to be aware of their surroundings through the FIVE senses, is a ANENCEPHALIC baby (has a brain stem but no upper brain) a LIVING soul?

Jesus Christ said 'Ye must be born again'

He didn't say 'Ye must be conceived again'!

Just some thoughts to ponder on.

Wow, interesting points...

[MC1171611]

Forrest: you bring up some very good verses; however, notice that the tie between loss of life and lack of a soul are after death, not before that life becomes a living soul in the first place. When there is no more life in a person, they no longer "need" their soul, and therefore the soul leaves the body at that point. Those verses don't seem to address the beginning of the soul, simply the end thereof.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by MC1171611

Forrest: you bring up some very good verses; however, notice that the tie between loss of life and lack of a soul are after death, not before that life becomes a living soul in the first place. When there is no more life in a person, they no longer "need" their soul, and therefore the soul leaves the body at that point. Those verses don't seem to address the beginning of the soul, simply the end thereof.

Hello MC. I posted the same comments with some additional thoughts and clarifications on another thread. This will address my view and response to your comments.

My post is on "the Breath Of Life" under Doctrine, located at:

http://av1611.com/forums/showthread....=newpost&t=631

I also think commits posted by "Diligent", which I agree with, provide more biblical fact to human "life in the womb" consisting of a spirit, soul, and body.

You know, there seems to be a lot of evidence going either way, and I just can't get my head around it at this time. I don't think it's something my husband wants me worrying about right now, but it is interesting if I ever get back to looking into this.