[drbible1611]

2. WHEN DURING GESTATION DOES THE SOUL FORM?

Ecclesiastes chapter 11

5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.

At some point during formation of the baby the spirit enters the baby and it becomes a LIVING SOUL.

Since my contention is that in the early stages of gestation the baby is UNPERFECT (Ps 139) and only a POTENTIAL LIVING SOUL let's look at a very interesting passage of Scripture which I believe helps us to determine when the baby becomes PERFECT and is ready to become a LIVING SOUL.

Ezekiel chapter 37

5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

In verses 7,8 & 10 we have BONES coming together 'bone to bone', we have SINEWS, we have FLESH, we have SKIN covering them and then the BREATH comes into them and they stand and have MOVEMENT.

If as stated by someone else we assume that the creation of Adam and Eve was unique, as it obviously was, and God had to breathe into them because they had no umbilical cords to receive the spirit to make them LIVING SOULS, then a baby must receive the 'breath/spirit' via the mother's BLOOD.

Leviticus chapter 17

11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood:

Based on Ezekiel 37 I would suggest the following requirements for a baby to become a LIVING SOUL:

a) FLESH
b) BONES/SINEWS
c) SKIN
d) MOVEMENT/QUICKENING (nervous system)
e) BLOOD/LIFE SPIRIT (must have a fully functioning circulatory system to carry life into it)

to be cont.

[Diligent]

And another thing...

Where is life? Is it in the "air" or is it in the blood?

Genesis 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Deuteronomy 12:23 Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh.

[atlas]

Dr.,


You are just about as far off base as Dr. Ruckman on this issue my friend. I'm not trying to offend you my friend. You may want study some of the post on the life issue on the other topic. Bro. Diligent, Bro. Luke, I and others have made some pretty good post about this issue my friend.

http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=609


Atlas

[atlas]

Diligent,

And another thing...

Where is life? Is it in the "air" or is it in the blood?

Genesis 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Deuteronomy 12:23 Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh.

Amen Bro. Diligent. We use or Moms blood in the womb to bring us life, via food, air water and other needed ingredients by babies in the mothers womb. What our mothers eat, breath and drink helps develop us in her womb. Eve was the mother of all living and our mothers feed us even before birth. It may not be in the same way as born babies are fed. Our mothers feed us from what their bodies have obtained via what they have ate, drunk and breathed. This is why the expecting mother needs to watch what they eat, drink and should not smoke and use some types of drugs while with child. What they put into their body will effect the child.


Atlas

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by drbible1611

2. WHEN DURING GESTATION DOES THE SOUL FORM?

Ecclesiastes chapter 11

5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.

At some point during formation of the baby the spirit enters the baby and it becomes a LIVING SOUL.

That verse doesn't say that at all.

(Side note -- this topic is tough to discuss because it is not always clear if a poster understands that a soul and a spirit are two different things. But on this verse it makes little difference.)

The verse is a clear exclamation that the growth of a new child in its mothers womb is something we don't know. This reminds me of a video I watched in government school on gestation. You know what it was called? The Miracle of Life! Here these secular scientists knew that even after all their explaining they didn't scratch the surface of it and still called it a "miracle."

This very verse calls it a "work of God." Who are we to interrupt this work of God at any stage when the work is clearly began? (and the Bible makes clear this work begins at conceive -- just do a Bible search for "conceived") And absolutely that means not using hormonal birth control that can prevent implantation. Whether or not one thinks the soul is present at any given stage, it's still the work of God in progress. Let God complete his work -- and he calls his work a "child" -- not an embryo or zygote or fetus -- a child, brother! Look it up -- 26 times in 25 verses the Bible says it's a woman "with child" -- how much more glorious a description than "pregnant" or a woman "with the ingredients baking" -- with child! Amen?

[Debau]

Originally Posted by drbible1611

2. WHEN DURING GESTATION DOES THE SOUL FORM?

Ecclesiastes chapter 11

5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.

At some point during formation of the baby the spirit enters the baby and it becomes a LIVING SOUL.

Since my contention is that in the early stages of gestation the baby is UNPERFECT (Ps 139) and only a POTENTIAL LIVING SOUL let's look at a very interesting passage of Scripture which I believe helps us to determine when the baby becomes PERFECT and is ready to become a LIVING SOUL.

.

This verse clearly tells us WE DO NOT KNOW the basic mysteries of life any more than we know the works of God!

But you then go ahead and assume to know the workings of God.


1 Corinthians 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

[drbible1611]

3. WHEN ARE ALL THE REQUIREMENTS PRESENT?

I'm afraid we will have to look to medical science to answer this question.

Gestation:

Week 5

The baby's heart and circulatory system are taking shape, but not fully formed.
No BONES, no SKIN, no MOVEMENT

It's POTENTIAL LIFE

Week 6

Heart is beating with a regular rhythm

Week 7

The umbilical cord is formed.
But still no BONES or MOVEMENT

Week 8

Baby's fingers and toes begin to form.
We are getting closer and closer.

Week 9

MOVEMENT BEGINS
Now have a central nervous system that is actually creating movement. There is a functioning heart, circulatory system and movement, but still no BONES.

Week 10

The bones begin to form.
So at this point all the requirements are present. We have skin, flesh, bones in movement (quickening) and a nervous system.

The baby has transitioned from POTENTIAL LIFE to a LIVING SOUL

4. INTERESTING STATISTICS ON ABORTION

61% occur within first 9 weeks of gestation.

Approx. 80% occur before 10/11th weeks of gestation.

Which means that 80% of abortions occur before you really have ALL the REQUIREMENTS for a LIVING SOUL.

CONCLUSION

In perspective the majority of abortions are NOT MURDER.

And so Dr Ruckman is probably correct although for the wrong Scriptural reasons.

Now, let me just make it quite clear that my own PERSONAL CONVICTION is that abortion is WRONG because "children are an heritage of the LORD and the fruit of the womb is his reward" (Ps 127:3) and "every good gift and every perfect gift is from above" (Jas 1:17).

However, if a baby is aborted before 10 weeks I don't believe it is MURDER.

Clearly this is a very emotive subject and NOT clear cut and I believe we should not judge the woman/couple if they abort the baby-it's between them and the Lord.

[atlas]

Dr.,

I'm afraid we will have to look to medical science to answer this question.

Well Dr. Ruckman disagrees with you brother. He wants to use gen 2:to apply to every child ever born.

The question to you is this.


Dose Gen. 2:7 apply to every person that has ever lived or dose it only apply to Adam?


Now you may or may not agree with Ruckman on this issue. This post is about what Ruckman believes and teaches. Now I say and have proved he takes Gen 2: 7 out of context. Now where do you stand on the issue of context of Gen. 2:7?




Atlas

[drbible1611]

Originally Posted by Diligent

Wow -- look at your steps of reasoning up there. You are saying you don't believe there is the living soul at conception because ("so...") someone might have to re-examine their use of certain types of birth control!?

In fact I totally agree -- people shouldn't use methods of birth control that can cause abortions! I'm not going to redefine an unborn child as an unborn "whatever" just because it might inconvenience someone!

You find me one instance of the word "conception" or "conceive" (any word form) in the Bible that indicates that the life is anything other than a person, and we'll have something to debate.

Look at this:

Genesis 21:2 For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him.

The conception was a fulfillment of God's promise! (If not, why mention it?) They didn't wait around to see if the "ingredients" would become a fully-baked boy to see if God fulfilled his promise to Abraham! Can you just imagine Sarah and Abraham waiting around to see if her pregnancy would be successful before rejoicing in the coming of their new child?

I wish you had waited until I had finished completing my posts before commenting.

This is why I wrote...to be cont.

The debate is when does a person become a LIVING SOUL. Yes Sarah CONCEIVED but it wasn't until 9 months later that she gave Abraham a LIVING SOUL.

I don't understand your point about the rejoicing-what does that prove one way or another?

May I suggest that a woman who has been raped and ends up conceiving is most UNLIKELY to be rejoicing

[drbible1611]

Originally Posted by atlas

Dr.,


You are just about as far off base as Dr. Ruckman on this issue my friend. I'm not trying to offend you my friend. You may want study some of the post on the life issue on the other topic. Bro. Diligent, Bro. Luke, I and others have made some pretty good post about this issue my friend.

http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=609


Atlas

No offence taken.

I have learned over the years to be hard-skinned.

Please read my posts carefully right up to my conclusion.