[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

I most definitely believe that the soul is created at conception. In fact (and not to start another topic here) I believe that the soul and spirit are distinct but inseparable except by the Sword (Word of God). [Hebrews 4:12]

The alternative of the introduction of the soul at birth not only opens the door wide for unrestricted abortion by removing the moral aspect, but it also brings total confusion as to the current and future circumstance of those who die in the womb, intentionally or unintentionally. That is horrendously troubling to me.

To me it doesn't diminish life by believing that the soul comes with the first breath. Personally, I value a human conception, regardless of what he or she is made up of. To me, a God created spirit and body being murdered is as bad as a God created spirit, soul, and body being murdered! That is a horrendously troubling thought to me. But I respect your view.

The subject of spirit, soul, & body of man is something the Lord has not opened my eyes to yet.

[Brother Tim]

Some questions for those who see the soul entering the body at birth: (give references if possible)
1 ) When does the spirit get created? If at conception, why?
2 ) If the body is without a soul, is it alive? If no, then when is a baby alive?
3 ) Does the spirit separate from the soul at any point?
4 ) If the pre-born child has no soul, then if death occurs in the womb, does the child cease to exist?

[Brother Tim]

Let's muddy the waters really well:
Are we:
1 ) bodies that have souls and spirits?
2 ) souls that have bodies and spirits?
3 ) spirits that have bodies and souls?

[Luke]

We are created in His image. We are a trichotomy.

Body, soul and spirit. Even in eternity we will have a body soul and spirit.

When God created Adam, he did it all straight away. Gave Adam a body, breathed into him (the spirit) and he became a living soul. All this by the power of God, immediately, the moment Adam was created.

I believe the same thing happens to a child created in the womb. God gives a child a body, a spirit, and the child is a living soul, before he is born. He doesn't create a body and spirit and then give a soul 9 months later.

[chette777]

Good thing our Salvation is not in jepardy with this topic.

without listing al the verses.

Only the first created man had life Breathed into him by God Eve was made completely living from Adams rib.

the Psalmist says the Lord knew me in my mother womb which wold indicate the person (soul) is already living while in gestation.

Seeing we are all born spiritually dead, and Job wished to be like a stillborn baby. It would be safe to concure that when a person takes their first breath they are born ina sinful state. if a child dies unborn or stillborn that child never took a breath in this world and thereby is innocent of sin as Job discribes.

Scripture tells us the person is already alive in the womb, known by the creator as a person while in gestation, and when he is born into the world he is born spiritually dead. Life begins at conception, sinful life begins at birth.

if I am correct I think George has some interesting stuff on his web page concerning Soul and Spirit. But don't quote me on that.

that should muddy it some more now.

[Luke]

What did David means when he said "In sin did my mother concieve me". As far as I am aware, David's mother was not a harlot, adulteress or fornicator, so that can only mean that he had a sinful nature from conception. Of course, not knowing good and evil, he would not be accountable for it as a child, in the womb or out.

[Diligent]

The Bible refers to a woman who is pregnant as "with child," a phrase that appears in 25 verses in the Bible. Thus, the Bible says an unborn baby is indeed a "child," not some lower-class human. If we let the Bible define its own words, there can be no question that child = child, not child = pre-human. Besides, a fetus is simply a young human -- younger than an infant and a toddler, older than a zygote.

Now the real question is what legal standing (in the Bible) an unborn child has. It is clear that the rules of manslaughter with regard to unborn children show that there is a difference (Exodus 21:22), but even if we accept Mosaic law as binding here (which would be interesting, since the prior few verses allow a man to get away with killing his servant!), this is only a manslaughter issue, not a premeditated killing.

The Bible doesn't address abortion directly like we'd like it to. But as so many of the verses already quoted in this thread show, killing an unborn child is killing a person -- Jeremiah and John are described as having attributes of a person while in the womb. And to bring this back to the beginning, the Bible already makes it clear what an unborn human is -- a child! We don't let parents kill their children, plain and simple. There is no Biblical basis for excusing abortion.

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by Diligent

Now the real question is what legal standing (in the Bible) an unborn child has. It is clear that the rules of manslaughter with regard to unborn children show that there is a difference (Exodus 21:22), but even if we accept Mosaic law as binding here (which would be interesting, since the prior few verses allow a man to get away with killing his servant!), this is only a manslaughter issue, not a premeditated killing.

Wow, look at this -- I had accepted this understanding of Exodus 21:22 so long that I didn't even read it before this post. Now I am reading it again and I think I was wrong:

Exodus 21:22-23 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

Now I am reading this and suddenly this looks to be clearly a law that punishes life-for-life when someone causes a woman to have a miscarriage and either the woman or the child dies.

1. Fruit departing = premature birth.
2. No mischief follow: the child lives.
3. Mischief follows: the unborn child or woman dies, and death penalty applies.

At the very least, this verse isn't clearly an excuse to permit abortions on demand!

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by Luke

What did David means when he said "In sin did my mother concieve me". As far as I am aware, David's mother was not a harlot, adulteress or fornicator, so that can only mean that he had a sinful nature from conception. Of course, not knowing good and evil, he would not be accountable for it as a child, in the womb or out.

Agreed. More to the point, David refers to himself at conception -- not some pre-human mass of tissue:

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

By using the words I and me David ascribed personhood to himself at conception.

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by chette777

Seeing we are all born spiritually dead, and Job wished to be like a stillborn baby. It would be safe to concure that when a person takes their first breath they are born ina sinful state.

I don't believe that's a safe conclusion at all, since David says he was conceived in sin.

Are you referring to this?

Job 3:16 Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.

(Interesting that Job calls unborn children "infants," which would make abortion infanticide. He also calls himself newly conceived a "man child" in verse 3. It's getting pretty tough to define an unborn baby as anything less than a child in the Bible!)

I don't see how this addresses when sin nature arrives (David did that) or anything else but the state of suffering Job was in.