[Here Am I]

Originally Posted by chette777

1) I stand corrected more than one book of works. could it be it is for alot of people at this judgement?

2)the resurrected dead at the beginning of the millenial kingdom are the saints who lost their lives during the great tribulation (context). this is not Job or Abraham. And the GWT is not called the resurrection of the wicked dead. they are part of a end times resurrection as Mary the sister of Martha understood it.

the second death and the final resurrection are not the same things. you seem to be making that quite clear. Nowhere does it say the final resurection is the second death. you make the final ressurection and those in it guilty of the second death by association. It is the second death that those in the first resurrection have no fear of. only those in the second resurrection that don't have their name in the lambs book have to fear the second death. show me any scripture that says no one at the final resurrection has their name in the lambs book of life. it only says those who dont (meaning that there are some who do).

3) No one said the the great white throne was not the final judgment. my point was the dead are judged and whomever's name was not found in the lambs book was cast in to the lake of fire. that tells us some did have their names in the lambs book. it doesn't say and no one's names were found in the lambs book of life and they were all cast into the lake of fire.

4) ALL salvation has an eliment of faith. My example was for Israel not Abraham. And I understand Abraham was a type of Gentile salvation by faith only but not in Christ finished work. He was not looking forward to the cross of Jesus Christ as Linda, whom you patted on the back (Job and Elihu knew better than to do that), claimed earlier all OT saints were.

5) I will not discuss this any further with any of you we can safely say we disagree. My KJV Stands as my final authroity and it doesn't agree with you either no matter how much you claim expository study is good (Female teaching men). Sorry I wont submit to it here or in church. My Bible stands alone on this.

Good answer, brother, thanks for clarifiying that a bit.

However, I do have a question for you: what do you mean by "(Female teaching men)"?

I am not trying to be contentious, but would like to know. I have run into a lot of men on the web who do not want women to voice what they believe or what they have learned, because it might be considered 'teaching' other men.

If I share my thoughts and beliefs here, or with any mixed group of brethren (and sistern?), it's not meant as usurping authority. We're just 'fellowshippin'...

FWIW, I submit to my LORD and Saviour, and to my husband, in that order. I also would submit to the authority of our pastor, if necessary (haven't had to do that, yet).

Acts 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto [them], and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

Not only Aquila, but Priscilla as well taught Apollos, a man, in the synagogue. There is no verse to say they were wrong, nor is there a verse that says they should have been reprimanded.

Women can teach, women can preach. They are just not allowed to usurp authority.

God placed many women throughout the Word of God in positions to teach. One I can think of is Mary, who was instructed to 'Go, and tell my disciple's that I have risen..."

Mary's witnessing the risen Christ to the Disciple's was certainly a type of teaching.

I might add, that a woman who obeys Christ and tells others of His love is a type of teaching. Women certainly can teach.

Scripture declares that women are to learn in silence, yes, but what good is learning if the one learning is not allowed to use that which she has learned to educate others?

If one studies carefully, the command for women to keep silent was not to silence the truth they had, but rather to keep down dissension in the Church. This is why Paul went on to say if they had questions let them ask of their husbands at home. These women were disrupting the services with their questions... that is the only reason they were forbidden to speak.

The four daughters of Philip prophesied in Acts... to men. And yet, they were not remprimanded for prophesying to men.

There are many others who carry the Word given to them by the Lord. He did not give them that Word just so they could zip their lips and say nothing.

When man preaches false doctrines, if there is a woman who has the truth, God holds her responsible for showing that man the truth so he can begin teaching it.

One had better listen to both men and women where the Word of God is concerned. Weigh what they are speaking against that which is written in the Word of God. If what either is saying lines up with the Word of God, then accept it no matter what sex that person is. If what they are teaching is contrary to Scripture, reject it.

Quite possible God has put that woman or man in your path to set you straight concerning His Word.

[chette777]

HIA,

well our Authroity is the Bible. so teaching born again men in any form would constitue an authority issue unless the men are unsaved.

I am open to hear what any women has to say but when they start forcing her veiw which is the view of another more than Bible I will draw the line openly.

no offense to anyone. just I will leave my authority on the Bible.

[chette777]

BC, no more after this please.

no one ever said women can not share and preach to unsaved people. Apollos was unsaved because the gospel he had been under was no longer in existence since before the cross.

but I don't want to debat with a woman who is teaching her preconceived ideas of what scriptures says. when it is clear what it says. dead is dead not lost at the GWT.

He believed John the Baptist teaching of the coming Christ and was baptised into john baptism just like the certain disciples of Acts 19. these men were not saved for the dispensation had passed and they were teaching and preaching a different gospel than that of Paul.s. No one had been saved through that type of Gospel for over twenty five years when Paul confronts them.

I am studying and teaching through the book of Acts and I preached acts 19 last week and 20 this week. Apollos was not saved, he only preached in the synagogues, after being corrected by Aquila and Priscilla he did get saved and it is only after that we see him teaching in the churches of God. he could of refused their teaching and been as lost as he was before they called him to themselves. but he was saved after hearing the true Gospel of faith alone in Christ finished work of the cross.

Priscilla still had her husband present it was not her alone. Even for the Jews a woman is not to teach a man. Though she was there I assure you she had very little to do with it. So are you Linda's Husband? if so you should speak mmore than she and if so it should be to the lost. throughout acts I have seen many places that a woman can teach and preach but every instance it is to lost people not saved. I am Saved.

I know you probably don't like that fact that the Bible teaches someone could be lost who is mighty in scriptures and eloquent in speach. but look where he is from Alexandria, the place where all heresy in the modern translations. many men today are that way but it doesn't prove they are saved or correct in their teaching.

Paul runs into it in Acts 20 and straightens them out. they were not saved either they hadn't even got the Holy Ghost which all true beleivers in this dispensation get the moment they believe. Appolos didn't have it no did these 12 certain disciples. their faith was in the coming of Christ not the death of Christ.

I have three women teachers in my church but none of them teach saved men. in or out of the church.

concernig the seven daughters of philip. though it is said they were prophecied it never gives any example of them prophecying in the church. just because they were doen't mean they were teachers (remember adding to scriputre is a very subtle thing beware for your heart can deceive you for it is still wicked and deceitful above all measure). do you allow women to preach from your pulpit? do you allow women to prophecy in your church? or only in Bible studies? any place the church (organic body) gathers would constitue a place where women are not to teach a saved man and the body has gathered in this forum. though it is not an official church organization it is a place of gathering. with lost also. that is why it is to be edification and not pushing our opinions. we should mind our practice here as if it were in you own church building. if you cause confusion of doctrines is not that working against the purpose of the forum? best to admit we don't agree and move on.

now that we are way off topic lets drop it and you all move on to some other misunderstanding of scriputres with in the topic.

I am to tired and busy to answer your retoric

[chette777]

My bad, correction it is Acts 18 last week and 19 this week concerning Apollos and the 12 disciples. and Acts 21 where the seven daughter of Philip are mentioned.

I have to many irons in the fire.

[LindaR]

Originally Posted by chette777

but I don't want to debat with a woman who is teaching her preconceived ideas of what scriptures says. when it is clear what it says. dead is dead not lost at the GWT.

Preconceived ideas? Debate? Teaching? I am simply sharing what the Bible teaches about the GWT...just because you disagree doesn't mean that I am debating or teaching my own preconceived ideas. End of discussion.

Chette,

Scripture does not say that Apollos was not saved before meeting Aquila and Priscilla. It only states that they expounded unto him the way more perfectly.

Scripture declares this man was instructed in the ways of the Lord and was fervent in the spirit. This was even before meeting Aquilla and Priscilla.

To say he was unsaved is reading into the Scripture what is just not there.

Just because Aquila and Priscilla had to teach him more perfectly the way does in no way mean he was not saved.

[chette777]

it also doesn't say Apollos was saved. I can tell he is not by the gospel he beleived and it wasn't the finished work of Christ on the cross either.

many unsaved preachers are eloqent, ferevent and know the ways of the Lord. this again does not mean they were saved.

if you study out 19:1-7 you will see Apollos tied into these certain disciples by inspiration of the Holy Ghost. this was teh result of Apollos teaching in Ephesus. you will see they didn't even know about the Holy Ghost or even herad of it. they believed in a Gospel that had not saved anyone since before the crucifiction. They learned it in Ephaesus From Apollos. This why he is taught the way more perfectly. not that he was saved and was corrected. He was lost on the wrong gospel and taught others this same gospel he beleived which was enforced by the Baptism of John. john never taught the death burial and resurrection one day in his life.

that is why so many Bible versions change the word since in 19 to when. to have all these guys saved under a different gospel but in error. god forbid that someone could be misled by the wrong teachng. that just doesn't ahppen today we are so much better than them.

I will not debate any more. on this subject.

From Morrish Bible Dictionary:

Apol'los

A convert from Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the scriptures, who, when only knowing the baptism of John, taught diligently the things of Jesus. At Ephesus he was taught more perfectly by Priscilla and Aquila. He laboured at Corinth, following the apostle Paul, who could hence say 'I have planted, Apollos watered,' and subsequently he greatly desired Apollos to revisit Corinth. His name is associated with that of Paul in connection with the party spirit at Corinth, which the apostle strongly rebuked; but from his saying he had 'transferred these things to himself and to Apollos,' it would appear that the Corinthians had local leaders, under whom they ranged themselves, whom he does not name; and that he taught them the needed lesson, and established the general principle by the use of his own name and that of Apollos rather than the names of their leaders. Ac 18:24; 19:1; 1Co 1:12; 3:4-22; 4:6; 16:12; Tit 3:13.

Many other commentators agree that Apollos was indeed saved. Just because the only doctrine of baptism he knew was John's does not mean he was not saved.

Scripture does not say that Apollos was led to faith in Christ, it says they showed him the way more perfectly. To say Apollos was unsaved is adding to the Scripture... a very dangerous thing to do.

The man was teaching that which the Lord had revealed to Him for the time He was preaching. Aquilla and Priscilla took him aside and showed Him even more of the Lord. That is all. There is nothing to imply the man was unsaved.

Also, according to Acts 19, the disciples Paul confronted had already believed on the Lord... so they, like Apollos, were saved. Was it not Paul that said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and ye shall be saved"? (Acts 116:31)

I agree, we can end the debate here seeing as you have not given any evidence to back your claim that Apollos was unsaved prior to meeting with the tentmakers.

[George]

Aloha BC,

Most of us on this Forum are Bible believers (King James Bible believers), and as such the "Morrish Bible Dictionary" has no more authority to settle Scriptural definitions than Donald Duck or Mickey Mouse! The King James Bible is its own best dictionary {especially in all matters of any spiritual importance} and is the FINAL AUTHORITY in all matters of faith and practice - at least for most of the people on this Forum..

When Apollos met Priscilla and Aquila he could not possibly have known the GOSPEL {"Good News"} of the Lord Jesus Christ ("Paul's Gospel"). And IF he didn't know the GOSPEL - then he wasn't saved.

Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

2 Timothy 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

The fact that you cannot discern the difference between Paul's "Gospel" {"the Gospel of Christ" - Romans 1:16} and that of the "Gospel of the kingdom" that John the Baptist preached illustrates that you are not "rightly dividing" the Scriptures in this matter.

John's "Gospel" ("the gospel of the kingdom") was:

Matthew 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. {This is NOT PAUL'S "GOSPEL"!}

[Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Matthew 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, {NOT PAUL'S "GOSPEL"!} and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.]

Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. {NOT PAUL'S "GOSPEL"!}

Mark 1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
6 And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;
7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.{John did NOT "preach" PAUL'S "GOSPEL"!}

Luke 3:2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins; {This is NOT PAUL'S "GOSPEL"!}

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. {Here is JOHN'S BAPTISM - This is NOT PAUL'S "GOSPEL"!}

Acts 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; {Here is JOHN'S BAPTISM - This is NOT PAUL'S "GOSPEL"!}

Acts 13:24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. {Here is JOHN'S BAPTISM - This is NOT PAUL'S "GOSPEL"!}

Acts 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. {Apollos KNEW ONLY the "BAPTISM" OF JOHN - which was - NOT PAUL'S "GOSPEL"!}
26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

If Apollos ONLY KNEW the "BAPTISM" of John, then he did NOT know Paul's "Gospel" - because Paul's "Gospel" came after John; after the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ; and after Peter, James, John, and Stephen's appeal to the nation of Israel {Acts Chapter 1 through Chapter 7}; Paul's "Gospel" was revealed to the Apostle Paul (NOT Peter, James, or John) after God called Paul to the ministry and revealed to him the mystery - "which was kept secret since the world began," [Romans 16:25]

Ephesians 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, {There you have it - PAUL'S "GOSPEL"}

Paul's "Gospel" {"the Gospel of Christ"} is:

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

You could not "prove" that Apollos was preaching {or even knew about} Paul's "Gospel" - from the Holy Bible (King James Bible - NOT the "Morrish Bible Dictionary") if your life depended on it.

There are just a few more verses that are applicable to this issue:

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Here you have a case of some "disciples" - who had received John's "Baptism", but had not yet received the Holy Ghost. Were they saved? {without receiving the Holy Ghost?} Can a person get saved and not receive the Holy Spirit? NOT according to PAUL'S "GOSPEL"!

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

According to Paul's "GOSPEL" - all those who have believed on, and have trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ, after they have: "heard the word of truth, the gospel (PAUL'S "GOSPEL") of your salvation" - have the Holy Spirit. How could those disciples (and Apollos) be "saved", if they only knew John's "Baptism", and hadn't yet received the Holy Ghost?

The Holy Bible sure can "clear up" the confusion and obfuscation of the "Morrish Bible Dictionary" or "many other commentators", or any other tradition or "device of man"!