Originally Posted by peopleoftheway

Easy up there Atlas, I am one of the ones that are on the outside looking in, I live in Belfast and there has been much unrest through the years, killing, bombing civil unrest and it has been a source of division through what some would class as war, or the "troubles" I am against this "political warfare". I will admit I am ignorant about Iraq and the USA so you are probably right, I shouldn't have answered.
My Grandfather served in WW2 and my Great Grandfather in WW1 so I do have my share of war horror stories from Him. Good counsel, I shall turn my prayers to the safety of the troops.

As I get older, my feelings about war and peace are changing somewhat. I have sons and grandsons, and don't want them in the military for a number of reasons, which I will not discuss at this point. Basically, I don't want them to die, and I think the military is a bad environment for a young Christian man - - - not because of the "war" part, but because it's just so filthy and worldly.

Having said that, of course I agree with Atlas. There is a time for war. Military service is not, in itself, a sin. (It would, like anything else, be a sin if God had told a young man to do something else, and he rebelled.) Jesus did not rebuke the soldiers who asked His advice; and He did command the disciples to get a sword. However, I don't glorify military service, although I pray for the troops; and I wouldn't counsel a young Christian man to enlist. If he were drafted, I would certainly counsel him to obey, and be the best soldier he could be!

As I say, my feelings are changing as I get older; but I must subordinate my feelings to the words of God, or I'm not much of a Christian.

[atlas]

Guys,


If I came across pro war, it is because I am pro war sometimes. Yet other times I'm not pro war. War is not always bad, nor always good. Killing is not always bad. If killing was a sin God would be a sinner for killing many with the flood in Noah's day. God killed many people there, that have earned death or God would not have killed them. The same holds true for Sodom and Gomorrah. God does kill people. This is a Bible fact. I can show you places in the O.T. and N.T. where some people because of some sin should be killed. This also is a Bible fact. This is what God says they are worthy of death. Rom. 1 good example of this. There are many places in the O.T. that says if you do this you shall surely put to death.

Now as to war, we know that God told many in the O.T. to go to war. We also can not find any N.T. passage that forbids war. We also know for a fact that the battle of Armageddon will take place in the future. This can only be called a war.

I am not for killing people for no reason, I am not for going off and getting into wars all of the time. We as a nation have been in good and bad wars. I think every nation has done this at some time. To say the Bible, God and Jesus are anti war is just wrong. This is not a Bible based. Nor is anyone that tries to make the case for God being anti war or anti killing some people for some sins.


Atlas

Originally Posted by Debau

Here are some verses for fodder for this thread. I won't exposit, but am interested in the response(es).

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Read the whole chapter, because you are taking the verse out of context, if you don't read the whole chapter.

After verse 34, Jesus says "35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."

Before a person comes to know Jesus, a person is unsaved. Once a person accepts Jesus into his heart a person becomes saved. Whenever a person is saved, he must change his lifestyle.

For example, "Let him that stole steal no more..." Ephesians 4:28. Another example, "Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth" Ephesians 4:29.

In other words, a person must change his lifestyle. Not only that, but a person must be light unot others. In other words, a person must reprof and preach to any that sin. (Matthew 5:14) "Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid."

Draw a picture. A whole family steals (like on taxes) and says corrupt communication (like cursing).

Then one of the family members becomes a Christian. The Christian member tells to others that it's not right before God to steal and to curse.

The other non-Christian family members want to continue stealing, and cursing. As the result of this, the non-Christian members do not like the Christian member. Re-read this again, if you do not understand.

This is very important, so please pay attention. Jesus said " Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Then in the next verse, Jesus explains what he meant by the phrase. Jesus says, "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."

In that chapter, when, Jesus said "I came not to send peace", he was refering that there would not be peace between the family members. Jesus was saying that to some people, it would be more to live if they would not be Christians. Jesus in verse 34 was warning people that if they become Christians, then they might be at war with some family members.

Originally Posted by Debau

Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Notice, that because Jesus has told the disciples to buy a sword, that means that before, the Desciples did not have a sword. Jesus know all of the future.

Jesus knew that if Peter would have a sword at the garder of Gethsemane, then Peter would attack the scribe's servant;

The reason that Jesus need a sword, is to show the scribes, that he can truly heal people. (For Peter had cut the ear off, and jesus had healed the ear.)

Originally Posted by Debau

37For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

In romans, verse 1 it says that all of the autority is from God. Verse 2 says that we need to obey autority. Verse 2 also says thatif we don't obey autority, we disobey God. The only time that we can disobey autorities,is the autority tells us to sin. When verse 4 says, "the minister of God" it refers to the autority.

So what the verse is saying, is that "the ministers of God"(the authorities) carry a sword. Therefore if we are evil, then we need to fear the authorities.


If you do not understand something that I said, please don't be afraid to ask.

[atlas]

WWJD,

Read the whole chapter, because you are taking the verse out of context, if you don't read the whole chapter.

Now that we are back on context. We need to talk about you and the passages you take out of context.

This is the question you ask and I addressed.

Please show me which verses I'm taking out of context.

1. Matthew 26:51-52 Peter and the ear cut off, nothing to do with war. You apply it to war. There is no war here. This is out of context

2. Matthew 5:44 also has nothing to do with war, you misapply the verse again.

3. Genesis 9:5-6 this also has nothing to do with war.

5. Matthew 24 dose not forbid war here either.

6. John 1:11 also has nothing to do with war.

7. Luke 7:12-13 you miss applied this to war also out of context.

8. John 10:10 No war forbidden by God here taken out of context.

9. Matthew 10:39 No war forbidden by God here taken out of context.

10. Luke 9:54-56 No war forbidden by God here taken out of context.

Now here are 10 examples of you taking the Bible out of the context that it was written to make it look like it backs up what you believe.

So lets get back to killing and war and context.



If killing was a sin would God would be a sinner for killing many with the flood in Noah's day?


God killed many people there, that have earned death or God would not have killed them. The same holds true for Sodom and Gomorrah. God does kill people. This is a Bible fact. The Lord is a man of war and the same today, yesterday and forever. This also is a Bible fact. God is a God of war and a God who kills s who need killing via their sins. God will also cast people into a lake of fir at the great White Throne Judgment. Is this a God who loves his enemies.

So now tell what I have ask for many times. Show me in the Bible war is sin. This is a simple request. Why will you not show me the book, chapter verse? Could it be because there is not one verse in either testament that says is sinful. I think this is your problem. You believe something the Bible dose not teach, so you have to t the Bible to make it agree with you. You are not worried about WWJD, you are worried about WWYD ( what would you do ) if the Bible disagrees with you well the Bible must be wrong.

Atlas

[Luke]

Didn't anyone read my post?

when we return with Christ, we will be KILLING unsaved men, enemies of Christ, the armies of the anti-Christ.

Joe 2:7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
Joe 2:8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
Joe 2:9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Now, call me bloodthirsty, but the thought of going to war for Jesus Christ, KNOWING I CANNOT DIE, is pretty exciting, but maybe that's because I am a male in my 20's :P

[atlas]

Luke,

Didn't anyone read my post?

I read your post, I'll bet WWJD wish he had not read your post. It is in the Bible. I knew it was there. I could not find it for some reason. It had been a long time back when I had read it. I do not think WWJD had a clue. He will not respond to the Bible other than taking parts of the Bible out of context. This is what he dose with 99% of his post. WWJD is a case study on wrongly dividing Word and how messed up you can become when you do so.

WWJD will not acknowledge the flood or Armageddon. This is what your and many of my post have been about, Armageddon. WWJD just wants to stick with " love everyone, war is bad, and killing is wrong. He never pays attention to the fact that war is never called a sin the Bible. Nor dose he like that fact that an untold number were killed by God in the flood. He also dose not like the fact that hundreds of millions will die in Armageddon killed by an army lead by Jesus himself and made up of believers.

Thanks for the post it helped me put that scripture back in my mind. I marked it in my Bible made reference notes.


Atlas

Originally Posted by atlas

WWJD,


There are no laws on war in the Bible. Show me one O.T. or N.T. law forbidding war or one O.T. law about war.

Is there a law in the Bible that forbids smoking tobacco or marijuana?
I don't see any. So does it make it right for me to smoke? No it doesn't

For smoking, I use "destroying temple of God"
For wars, I use "Jesus prohibits violence"

Don't get me wrong, God did allow wars in the OT. God also allowed multiple wives in the OT.


I have a charismatic friend, who says that we should dance at the church. A mormon friend believes that it's ok to have more than one wife. The reason that they do these things, is because they want to obey the OT.

Does this mean that I should also dance and have more than one wife?

Originally Posted by atlas

Now here are 10 examples of you taking the Bible out of the context that it was written to make it look like it backs up what you believe.

Please understand that for me, violence, fighting, and a war is prettymuch the same thing. For you, it is different. This is why you think that these verses are out of context.

Originally Posted by atlas

Well if this is the case, the LORD is a man of war. He is also the same today, yesterday and forever.

Of course God is a man of war. He will fight Saten, and will throw him in the lake of fire. Even though God is a man of war, this does not mean that God supports all of the wars that happen on the Earth. Study the NT and the OT. In the NT, God NEVER uses physical violence. NEVER. He only uses spiritual violence.

Originally Posted by atlas

Where is the book of Revelation located? Now I have done as you have ask, now back to the other questions I ask you. I will re post all of the information.

The book of Revelations, is the history of the future. God says "This is what the future would be like." This does not mean that God approves everything in the book of Revelations. In Book of Revelation, God reveals what the future would be. God wants to show people that He really does know the future.

Please find me references of the battle of Armageddon. Thanks

Originally Posted by Luke

There is a verse somewhere in the minor prophets about the return of Christ, and how his saints will wage war against men, and if the saints are stabbed or cut with a sword, they will not be wounded, and they will kill thousands and thousands of men.

EDIT: Here it is

Joe 2:7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
Joe 2:8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
Joe 2:9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

OK, I agree that we need to obey Christ if He tells us to go and fight a war.

My question:
Did Christ tell us to fight in the Iraq and Afganastan war?

[peopleoftheway]

I have a charismatic friend, who says that we should dance at the church. A mormon friend believes that it's ok to have more than one wife. The reason that they do these things, is because they want to obey the OT.

2 Corinthians 6:14
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

Is it any wonder you are confused my friend. I see now where you are getting all your doctrine from, maybe you don't, but fellowship with those with doctrines completely contrary to one another is confusion, and God is most certainly not the author of it.

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

You are in the middle of an ecumenical nightmare, come out of Babylon!

Revelation 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Originally Posted by Vendetta Ride

As I get older, my feelings about war and peace are changing somewhat. I have sons and grandsons, and don't want them in the military for a number of reasons, which I will not discuss at this point. Basically, I don't want them to die, and I think the military is a bad environment for a young Christian man - - - not because of the "war" part, but because it's just so filthy and worldly.

Having said that, of course I agree with Atlas. There is a time for war. Military service is not, in itself, a sin. (It would, like anything else, be a sin if God had told a young man to do something else, and he rebelled.) Jesus did not rebuke the soldiers who asked His advice; and He did command the disciples to get a sword. However, I don't glorify military service, although I pray for the troops; and I wouldn't counsel a young Christian man to enlist. If he were drafted, I would certainly counsel him to obey, and be the best soldier he could be!

As I say, my feelings are changing as I get older; but I must subordinate my feelings to the words of God, or I'm not much of a Christian.

I think about it this way:
The more Christians die in a military, the less Christians there would be. The less Christians there are, the less Christian voice there is in the government. The less Christian voice there is in the government, the less Christian laws exist. The less Christian laws there are, the harder it is for Christians to Live on Earth

I mean, that if there would be more Christians in the past, then there would be more Christians Presidents and Christian Judges.

If there would be more Christian Judges, then after Roe v Wade, abortion would still be illegal. If there would be more Christians, then homosexual would not be allowed to marry in CA. If there would be more Christians, the Males and Females (in CA public schools) would not have to go to the same bathroom. If there would be more Christian prayers, then GOd would protect U. S. from 9/11. If there would be more Christian Judges, then students would still pray and read KJV Bible in public schools. If there would be more Christians, then evolution would not be taught in school and Chriation would still be taught in schools.