[chette777]

I would like to get others observation, Interpretation and Application of this set of Scruptures. Please be brief in your replies and let's not cludder our minds with preconceived ideas from other commentators or teachers at this time. just simply look at the text and interpret it by the context of the Scriptures and answer some basic questions. I beleive by the time we are finished with this thread it will reveal some interesting facts to us and application as well.

Matthew 20:20-23 Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him. And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom. But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

first question "what is the cup?" the cup Jesus prayed to be delivered from in the garden is the work of attonement for mans sin. the cup in the Bible referes to the wrath of God.

second question "what is the Baptism?" this baptism is to be the same as Jesus Baptism according to the Words of Christ and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with Obviously this is not water baptism, it may well be the type of death which would be the same as Christs.

Third question "Why is Jesus asking them if they are able to drink and be baptized?"

Forth question "Why is Jesus sayig they shall indeed participate in this cup and Baptism?"

[Biblestudent]

Hi, Bro. Chette!

1. I think the cup there may also be the "cup of sin" (2 Cor 5:21 "made sin for us"), as well as "the cup of wrath" (Isa. 53 - "smitten of God").

The late Dr.Dennis Spackman believes it's a cup of sin. Here's a quote from his booklet Gethsemane to Golgotha :

"What is this cup? This is the cup, the total contents of GOD'S WRATH which is to be poured out on Jesus, while Jesus is being crucified, thus making Him to be Sin for us...Somehow, God the Father presented a "cup" to Jesus. Not a physical cup, but in every other way a very real cup, and this cup was the CUP OF SIN.

In Isa. 53:6 [Do look it up] it says '...the LORD hath laid on him, the iniquity of us all.' and when Jesus was praying inthe Garden, God the Father puts an imgainiary cup before Jesus, and as Jesus looks into that cup, He sees all the putrid dregs of all the sin, of all humanity...

A seething mass of horrible, disgusting, filthy sin...

As God the Fatrher offered that cup to the Lord Jesus Christ, it was as though God was saying, "If you are to save poor lost sinners, you must take their sin, YOU MUST DRINK THIS CUP! With this in mind, check out 2 Cor.5:21" (p. 23)

2. I notice the expression "baptism WITH" in the KJV as associated with POURING. For example the "baptism with the Holy Ghost" is the "pouring" of the Holy Ghost and the "baptism with fire" is the "pouring" of God's wrath.

In Matthew 20, I believe Jesus speaks of being "baptize with the wrath of God". The sin of mankind was laid "on Him" and so the wrath of God is going to be "poured out" on Him at the cross.

Hope this gives some insights.

[chette777]

OK lets leave others works alone and focus on just using the Scriptures and the Bible for the time being. this wasy we can develop answers based on our own Observation later we can look at others to see how we fare.

Good job though I see you did some scripture comparison on Baptized with. very good. that is helpful in understanding. keep going.

I think some are looking here but not wanting to enter in yet. OK a couple more questions in light of Biblestudents answers

fifth question "who are the children of Zebedee, john and james?"

sixth question "how did they die?"

We will tie all this up when we have done our study through and see some interesting facts. so feel free to enter in and give some input.

[Biblestudent]

I agree with that, but I used other's works that I found similar to my observations, but who seems to put it better than I do. Thanks!

Greetings,

The cup that Jesus is referring to in Matt. 20 is the cup of suffering. The baptism that Jesus is referring to is the baptism of fire.

Luke 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

Hebrews5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


The reason why that Jesus asked His disiples if they were able to drink of the same cup and partake of the same baptism is because of the dullness of their hearing. He wanted to think about what they were actualy asking for and the price they would eventually pay themselves to see that. He had just recently told them the things they would have to forsake to follow Him. But he also told them that if they forsook all, then they would receive doulble in this life and in the world to come, with persecutions. He also told them how that they that had followed Him, in the regeneration when the Son of man would sit in the throne of His glory, that they also would sit on 12 thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. The disciples heard the part about sitting on thrones alongside Jesus. But they did not hear the part about the persecutions.

John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

[chette777]

I believe the cup cannot be the cup of the wrath of God, nor can the Baptism be death on the cross (taught some of us at Bible College).

Luke 12 has Jesus yet to be Baptized, in Matt 20 and Mark 10 Jesus is already Baptized. look at the wording, "and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?" see the past-tense of the English. Jesus is already Baptized with the Baptism that He asks them if they are able.

He calls the cup "my Cup". the cup of Jesus Christ is something that needs to be considered here it is not the cup of Gods wrath, but the Lords cup given at the last supper the cup of the New Testament in his blood. And they partook of the cup of the New Testament, of which Judas did not drink from. Christ drank from it and so did the 11 Apostles.

And the Baptism that Jesus already was baptised with, was the Holy Ghost. Biblestudent saw it Paritally, they were later Baptized with the Holy Ghost just as Jesus was. it came upon Christ like a dove but upon the Apostles witha sound of a mighty wind and as tongues of fire.

Neither John nor James were crucified nor did they die for the sins of others. so the cup is not the cup of Luke 12, 22 or the one in the garden, and the Baptism is not that of crucifiction. neither one died because of the wrath of God nor in the same manner as Christ were they killed. Both James and John suffered for thier faith. One dies at the hands of Herod who saw that he got the favor of the Jews descided to do it again by taking Peter. John by tradition died in Ephesus.

He was asking them if they will be able to enter into the Kingdom in which they were asking to be coregents over. remember the Gospel of the Kingdom has to be accompanied by works "are ye able to" is a work.

they would indeed enter into the Kingdom but for the places in which they requested it was the Fathers to give not Christs. before one can get a seat in the Kingdom they must first enter into it. today we enter in not by our own works but by Christ's finished work on the His cross. and we are baptized the moment we beleive.

the topical context ends in verse 24. the next section Jesus addresses the desire to rule over others. which may be what the others thought James and John were asking for when they became angry with them in verse 24. However as mentioned in goph's post they will reign from 12 thrones over Israel. which makes the seats on Jesus left and Right something higher than those 12 thrones, and in the power of the God the Father, Jehovah.

But under the Gospel of the Kingdom of which Jesus taught them and gave them commandment to preach, and knowing the ways of that Gospel we see that works always need to accompany it. that same gospel pops up again in the Tribulation period after the church is removed and the Church Age ends also taking with it the Gospel of Grace, salvation through grace by faith alone in the finished work of Christ.

I know there are a few ways to look at these scriputres and this is one of them. It matters not as to my or your salvation. but makes for interesting study.

God bless you all in your study of His Word