[Gord]

Originally Posted by Cloudwalker

So when God pricks the heart...we don't have a choice to make or God has made that choice for us already?

That is some pretty warped theology there Chief...indeed. I guess you'll have to do away with countless Scriptures about believing, faith, choosing...etc.

...

Actually it's 100% scriptural if you would have actually read my quotes from the KJV

Romans 3:10-18 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

Joh*6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh*6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Joh*6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Joh*15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Romans 9:10-13 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Job 42:1-6 Then Job answered the LORD, and said, I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee. Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[Brother-Smith]

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Does the highlighted word refer to "Grace" or "faith"?

[Cloudwalker]

Originally Posted by Luke

You should add English Standard Version to the Calvinist Bibles. I understand the KJB was also done by Calvinists, but the ESV was done especially for Calvinists, with a focus on translating in "their favour", so to speak.

That Version is definitely biased towards the reformed theology...no doubt about it.

When you got John Piper, RC Sproul endorsing it...well, ya know.

[Cloudwalker]

Originally Posted by Gord

Actually it's 100% scriptural if you would have actually read my quotes from the KJV

I've read those Verses 100+ times and for some strange reason...I'm just not seeing what you're seeing.

I guess it's all in the interpretation, right?

I'll say it again, to say that God actually chooses some to Salvation and the rest are just...well, out of luck is just plain INSANE!!!!

Calvinists can't have it both ways, they can't tell us that God chooses only the elect for Salvation and the rest..."He just ignores or he chooses them for damnation?"

I don't think so, your interpretaion is in error.

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." ~ {Revelation 22:17}

[Brother-Smith]

Hello all,

Having been a Christian since I was eight, I always understood that God:

Predestined some to be saved IF the believed.
Elected Christians to salvation IN Jesus Christ by faith alone.
Called the Christians who are saved by the WORD of God.
Sanctified Christians BY the Holy Ghost.
That all of this was preordained BEFORE he even started the world.
Christians could never lose this salvation because God keeps it for us.

I have been to church maybe 10 times in the last 17 years or so.
I read my bible, prayed, talked with other Christians and sinned during these last 30 or so years. I didn't always know all the answers but I believed the above and believed that I was saved, even when I was struggling in trying to understand the questions about the people who have never heard the "good news" of Christ.

I never knew anything different until some man told me that it was different. I am going to trust GOD on this issue. Many people see it different from me these days. I pray that they are saved because I don't even want my worst enemies to go to hell. I wish that all would come to Christ and I will continue telling people that they can IF they believe in Jesus Christ and his blood.

Another story: I went to a church recently and the sunday school leader told me that his neighbor wanted him to write a letter to their son in prison. This family was not Christian, but they found out that the teacher was a preacher and they told him that their son became a Christian in prison. They wanted him to help their son along the way. The teacher began to cast doubt right a way on whether or not their son was "really" a christian to the class. He said that he wrote him a 30 page letter "laying it all out." What it means to be a christian and so on. "Class, 80% of all criminals will return to that life after prison." I in return said, "Paul could be viewed as a criminal before he was saved." I can tell you that I prayed for the son in prison and that my spirit was in fits when I heard the snide commentary coming from the false teacher. This was a Reformed Baptist Church.

I guess I would have suggested that the teacher had the class pray for the inmate and take turns writing him letters to keep him company and grow in the faith, but that is me.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, that come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

[peopleoftheway]

Originally Posted by Brother-Smith

Hello all,

Having been a Christian since I was eight, I always understood that God:

Predestined some to be saved IF the believed.
Elected Christians to salvation IN Jesus Christ by faith alone.
Called the Christians who are saved by the WORD of God.
Sanctified Christians BY the Holy Ghost.
That all of this was preordained BEFORE he even started the world.
Christians could never lose this salvation because God keeps it for us.

I have been to church maybe 10 times in the last 17 years or so.
I read my bible, prayed, talked with other Christians and sinned during these last 30 or so years. I didn't always know all the answers but I believed the above and believed that I was saved, even when I was struggling in trying to understand the questions about the people who have never heard the "good news" of Christ.

I never knew anything different until some man told me that it was different. I am going to trust GOD on this issue. Many people see it different from me these days. I pray that they are saved because I don't even want my worst enemies to go to hell. I wish that all would come to Christ and I will continue telling people that they can IF they believe in Jesus Christ and his blood.

Another story: I went to a church recently and the sunday school leader told me that his neighbor wanted him to write a letter to their son in prison. This family was not Christian, but they found out that the teacher was a preacher and they told him that their son became a Christian in prison. They wanted him to help their son along the way. The teacher began to cast doubt right a way on whether or not their son was "really" a christian to the class. He said that he wrote him a 30 page letter "laying it all out." What it means to be a christian and so on. "Class, 80% of all criminals will return to that life after prison." I in return said, "Paul could be viewed as a criminal before he was saved." I can tell you that I prayed for the son in prison and that my spirit was in fits when I heard the snide commentary coming from the false teacher. This was a Reformed Baptist Church.

I guess I would have suggested that the teacher had the class pray for the inmate and take turns writing him letters to keep him company and grow in the faith, but that is me.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, that come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Good thoughts there Brother.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Here is a situation when a "babe" in Christ needed Christian support and grounding in the word of God rather than doubts cast upon his salvation because of his previous life which of course he IS FORGIVEN FOR!
You idea would have served a much better purpose and honoured our Lord and Saviour in the spirit of Love and reconciliation.

Some men, teachers, pastors need to quit playing the Holy Ghost and let the real deal do his work. And remember they too were once lost, wretched, without hope and destined to an eternity without Christ, yet contrary to their lifestyle Grace through faith changed all that.

[greenbear]

It does my heart good to read brothers write the truth about the character of our God. He has revealed to us what He is like, what He has done, is doing and will do. I know Him personally, He is kind, compassionate, long suffering, and not willing that any should perish. I believe what He says in his Book.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Gord

Actually it's 100% scriptural if you would have actually read my quotes from the KJV

Romans 3:10-18 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

Joh*6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh*6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Joh*6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Joh*15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Romans 9:10-13 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Job 42:1-6 Then Job answered the LORD, and said, I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee. Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Okay, brother Gord, even though these verses have been addressed in this long thread, here is my take on them

Romans 3:10-18 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.

The Bible is very clear about humankind’s nature. We should all avoid making scripture say something it does not say. The Bible does not does not say “there are none that CAN even understand the gospel message in the written word of truth when they read it or hear it.” It does not say “there are none who seek God after they hear the word of truth and the gospel message because they are so unrighteous, lacking in understanding, and self-seeking they have the inability to believe what they hear.” It does not say anywhere in this passage that a person is so utterly unrighteous, so lacking in understanding, so unable to seek God after hearing the gospel message in the word of truth that there is no possible way for them to even believe unless God regenerates there spirit and makes them righteous, able to understand, and able to seek.

Sure, I suppose a person could read into this passage the false teaching of total depravity, but he would be required to add words to the perfect, preserved, inspired and infallible written word of God in order to make it fit. Yes, we are indeed sinners in need of a Savior, no doubt about that. That is why we are invited to believe: “…how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).

Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

I may be wrong here, but I think the book of Jeremiah was written specifically to the Israelite. With that in mind, the word of God is very clear:

Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

It seems to me that the free will of the Israelite is at work here. They, of their own free will, chose to forsake God the fountain of living waters and they, of their own free will, chose to hew out cisterns, broken, that could hold no water. God did not do it. I may be wrong here, but it seems the scripture is clear. Their free will to follow, love, obey, and serve the God of Israel was at work and they chose the wrong way.

Jeremiah 2:19 Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.

And it seems clear to me that God gave Israel the opportunity to turn to Him and do the right thing with their God given free will.

Jeremiah 3:12-15 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever. Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD. Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion: And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

Yes indeed, this is a great description of me before I exercised my God given free will and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, “…how that Christ died for our [my] sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).

But I confess, to my shame sometimes I’m still foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, and sometimes outright hateful. I praise Jesus Christ that after I, with my God given free will, heard the gospel and believed “…how that Christ died for our [my] sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3-4). And now, praise God, after I believed:

Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Joh*6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

That’s very true; no man can come, or even desires to come, unless the Father draws him. Thank God He did draw us:

John 3:14-15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Joh*6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

That’s true. Thank God He loved us enough to give His only begotten Son. God gave. I did not wake up one day and decide on my own that “I think I’ll believe on the Lord Jesus Christ today and be saved from my sins.” God gave. And when I first heard how “God gave” I rejected, with my God given free will, the gospel of truth. But one particular day this happened. “In whom ye [Forrest] also trusted, after that ye [Forrest] heard the word of truth, the gospel of your [Forrest’s] salvation: in whom also after that ye [Forrest] believed, ye [Forrest] were [was] sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, (Ephesians 1:13). Praise God! He gave!

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Galatians 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

1 Timothy 2:4-6 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Joh*6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

That’s very true. And those whom the Father has given to Jesus are those whom have believed.

John 6:34-40 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Coming to Jesus is always contingent on belief. All who, with their God given free will, choose to believe on Jesus Christ, “…how that Christ died for our [my] sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3-4), are given to the Son by God the Father. That is His plan and purpose from the foundation of the world.

Joh*15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Of course, you know that in John 15, Jesus is speaking to the eleven remaining disciples, right? (Judas is gone from the other eleven back in chapter thirteen.) However, we can certainly make some personal application. We did not choose Him. He chose us. But read the scripture carefully. What did He choose?

1. That ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain.
2. That whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

That ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain.

Let me first make application to bringing forth fruit through abiding. It is important for us to understand there are actually two distinct aspects of abiding in Jesus Christ. These two aspects of abiding differentiate between our absolute spiritual position in Christ and our daily or practical operation in Christ. They are connected.

First, we should know that to abide in Christ is a positional relationship. “Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me” (John 15:4). It should be obvious to all of us. We have no spiritual life or fruit apart from Him. To abide in the Lord Jesus occurs initially with the event of receiving Him by faith. The way to abide in Christ is to believe in and receive Him. “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name” (John 1:12). Believe in Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

Our spiritual birth results in a lasting personal relationship with Christ and guarantees everlasting life. “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession…” (Ephesians 1:13–14).

The word sealed in this context means sealed for security from Satan. As believers our position is now in Christ and nothing can ever dissolve or destroy this eternal relationship—we are marked forever! And we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. Once we are born again we can never be unborn. This is a reality because eternal salvation is entirely dependant on the completed work of the Lord Jesus Christ—not us. This is a permanent exchange from spiritual death to spiritual life.

Secondly, once the initial event of receiving Christ occurs, abiding in Him should continue in an operational or experiential process. “…He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing” (John 15:5). Every true believer abides in a positional relationship with Christ, but all believers are not experiencing Jesus Christ as their very life on a daily basis. Just as a branch grows in the vine, scripture admonishes us to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (2 Peter 3:18).

Here’s the concern with many of us. After we received Christ He became secondary or perhaps even subordinate to our desire for spiritual growth. But in reality our deepest desire should always be to know, love, and follow the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a process of growing and maturing in Him. I am certainly not referring to just acquiring more “intellectual” knowledge of the Lord Jesus as we mature in the Christian life. Instead, I am exhorting you to cultivate a deeper spiritual knowledge and keen perception of Christ which in turn will alter the way you think and live.

Both the position (the event of receiving Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Saviour) and the operation (the process of growing in Christ), is simply Christ.

That whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Next, I want to address prayer and make application to asking in His name. Here’s my take on prayer. God hears and answers prayer. He hears our sincere request regardless of how “trivial” or “insignificant” it may seem. But as we grow in Christ the content of our requests will change. The things we once viewed as important will get an occasional glance and the teachings of Christ will begin to claim our attention. As a result, our prayer life will become more Christ-centered and Christ-directed. We will begin offering prayers of supplication according to His will, not our own. This growth process will occur in each of our lives as we grow in Christ.

Let’s take a look at John 15:7. “If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.” When we apply the words “ask what ye will” apart from “abide in me, and my words abide in you,” our prayers become self-directed instead of Christ-directed. If His words do not abide in us, we will fail to pray effectively, it’s that simple. It is very important for us to understand that our will conforms to His will when His words abide in us. Our will is altered and transformed by the indwelling Holy Spirit operating through the word of God. The reason many of us “ask amiss, that [we] may consume it upon [our] lusts” is because His word is not abiding in us. (See James 4:3.)

I suppose one of the major obstacles we each face is that we are so often ensnared by the things we covet that our prayers end up drowning in the sea of self. As a result we do not pray effectively for ourselves or for one another because we are asking for the things we want instead of what God wants. If we knew what God said about certain issues in life our requests would conform to His will. Even our prayers for governmental authorities would change because we would be focused on the heart of God instead of our personal political views. Search the scriptures truthfully and you’ll find out what God says regarding important life issues. As you discover God’s heart then pray for our nation and leaders according to His will.

The phrase “ask what ye will” is not a divine permission slip to ask for whatever you want. We must be honest and thorough with the word of God. Our prayer life will change as we abide in Him and His words abide in us. “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom….” (Colossians 3:16).

Please understand this is how I apply John 15:16 to believers today. It is my application.

Romans 9:10-13 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Perhaps I’m missing words in Romans 9:10-13 that you are able to see. Does this purpose of God according to election have anything to do with eternal salvation?

Job 42:1-6 Then Job answered the LORD, and said, I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee. Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

Job simply acknowledged something we should each acknowledge when God opens our eyes of spiritual understanding through His word.

After Job gave a personal summation of his own life (Job 29–31), the Lord spoke directly to him. Beginning in chapter 38 through chapter 41, the Lord revealed His power in creation and His sovereign will in all things. The Lord revealed His omniscience (the fact He is all-knowing), His omnipresence (the fact He is everywhere), and His omnipotence (the fact He is all-powerful). With timely words of perfect wisdom, the Lord stripped Job of himself. The Lord emptied Job of any self-righteousness and self-sufficiency.

Broken and at the end of himself, Job finally acknowledged, “…I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not” (Job 42:3). In other words, Job admitted he really did not know what he was talking about. Like we do many times, he opened his mouth and uttered words without true knowledge.

After the Lord’s revelation of Himself, Job willingly confessed, “I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee” (Job 42:5). Job really saw the Lord with eyes of spiritual understanding. Previously Job did all of the right things. He knew all of the right doctrines. He had the right disciplines. He lived an obedient life. But like most of us he heard with his ears but failed to see with eyes of deep understanding. In the midst of all his spiritual activity Job had never really seen the Lord with an understanding heart. He did not really understand the all-ness of God! When Job finally saw the Lord in all of His majesty and unlimited power his perspective changed. It is the Lord’s perfect will that we all bask in His glory, His power, and His majesty. It is God’s will that we rest in the sufficiency of Christ because all the fullness of God is in the person of Jesus Christ. “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily” (Colossians 2:9).

What a difference seeing the Lord with an understanding heart can make. It was only after seeing the Lord that Job saw himself as he really was—a sinner needing mercy from God. “Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes” (Job 42:6). When we see the Lord with an understanding heart there is only one possible response: we detest ourselves and repent. Our mind changes about who we are and who God is. We decrease and He increases.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The scripture explains itself here. By grace, through faith, not of yourselves, that is to say, not of works lest any man should boast. This does not say we cannot, with our God given free will, choose to believe “…how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).

[Diligent]

Bro. Forrest,

Thanks for your post (and your clarification regarding the eleven which my post was unclear about).

I wanted to add that the question of being drawn is also answered here:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

This is of course denied by the "I" in "TULIP" which says that God's Grace is irresistible. If God's grace is irresistible then everyone would be saved. This ties right in with your comments about John 12:32.

[Cloudwalker]

Absolute awesome post Forrest...Amen!

If that don't take the scales off the Calvinists eyes I don't know what will.

Not to mention that Verse that Dilligent posted...spot on.

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." ~ {1 Timothy 4:10}

Hmm, interesting.