[biblereader]

Hello. I'm back, and I appreciate being un-banned,so to speak.
I hope we can all treat each other with respect, and behave as
adults, one to another.

My husband, along with another male member of
my family, has told me to have nothing to do with certain members
in this forum, and out of great respect and submission to God's Holy Word, and to my husband, I am obeying them. I hope you all will also understand this, and not be upset when/if I do not reply to certain members in this forum.

My time on this forum, is to be limited each week, too. It may be a while before I reply to others, so, don't be offended. Peace.

That being said, I would like to go on to something else, now.
I received a fascinating email, last week, from a Christian female friend of mine,
talking about the crowns given to the believer. I know there are some verses
in the KJV bible about crowns, but, is there a set of specific crowns that will
be awarded to believers, as they triumph over certain trials and tribulations?
I heard there was a martyr's crown, a soulwinner's crown, etc.

************************************************** ****************************************


Here's another interesting article I got, from the Berean Call, about J.Osteen:
PREACH THE WORD AND JOEL OSTEEN

"[Osteen] understands the importance of TV and uses the language of contemporary American society - the language of psychotherapy." [Excerpts]

Having preached for less than a decade, Osteen, 46, presides over a Houston church in a former basketball arena that draws 40,000 people on Sundays. His televised sermons are seen by more than 7 million Americans a week and millions more around the world.

He's had two best-selling books and a third, "It's Your Time," will come out in November. He's only been preaching on the road for five years, but is taking the stage at the new Yankee Stadium before A-Rod for what he calls "A Night of Hope."Mind Invaders

He appeals to conservatives and liberals, Texas Republicans and Nancy Pelosi, Pentecostal Christians filled with the Holy Spirit and atheists filled with none.

"I wish I could explain it better," he said of his appeal in a recent interview with The Journal News at the swanky Mandarin Oriental Hotel in Columbus Circle. "I don't have an answer. I guess it's that my message is positive and hopeful. People stop me on the street, whether they are bikers or bankers. I've had atheists tell me that they watch me on TV.

"It's got to be God," he said, "because it's not me."

Tulane University's Shayne Lee, an expert on superstar evangelists, said Osteen is young, fresh, likable and doesn't have the baggage of the televangelists of old.

"He understands the importance of TV and uses the language of contemporary American society - the language of psychotherapy, the language of Americans who watch Oprah and Dr. Phil," said Lee, whose new book, "Holy Mavericks," profiles Osteen and four other pastors with national followings. "Osteen understands that his brand is not to condemn, but uplift. If the caricature of the typical evangelist is a fingerpointing loudmouth, Osteen seems so trustworthy that he's the boy next door."

"My message is not about doctrine. I don't have to get 50 references from Scripture in a sermon for it to be a good sermon. Churches that are helping people live out a Christian life are growing and flourishing."

http://www.lohud.com/article/2009904220354

[TBC: "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned to fables.]

I like the way they attached the perfect Scripture to the article, to emphasize the error of Joel Osteen. What do you think about the popular preachers, such as
Rick Warren and his purpose driven church dogma? Why are they popular?

************************************************** ******************************************

I've been really getting in deep with my morning Bible studies.Praise God!
I read, in 2 Peter, this morning, again, a set of Scripture verses which has puzzled me for a while, and I'm hoping to get a clearer definition of what the traits mean, in the verses.
Here's the Bible passage:
2: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3: According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5: And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6: And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7: And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8: For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9: But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

My questions at the moment are, what is the definition of each of the characteristics listed in vs. 5-7?
What, exactly, is virtue? What's the difference btwn. temperance and patience, and between brotherly kindness, and charity?
Do these traits have to be added to in the order in the Bible? I mean, can you have knowledge before you have virtue, etc?

[CKG]

Originally Posted by biblereader

My questions at the moment are, what is the definition of each of the characteristics listed in vs. 5-7?
What, exactly, is virtue? What's the difference btwn. temperance and patience, and between brotherly kindness, and charity?
Do these traits have to be added to in the order in the Bible? I mean, can you have knowledge before you have virtue, etc?

Here is a site that may assist you in your studies:

http://www.biblebc.com/Studies/Chris.../main_page.htm

[biblereader]

So, virtue is conviction.

Right?

Charity,living completely unselfishly, I don't know if that's possible...

Is anyone truly unselfish?
And, able to bridle their own tongue?
Nobody I know. The Christian life is a long, sometimes difficult, training session, and workout. That's kind of lame, but, it seems the more we know about being Christians, the more we work hard at pleasing Jesus, the more we see we lack.

[Luke]

the more we work hard at pleasing Jesus, the more we see we lack

Sister, you really need to read Watchman Nee's Sit, Walk, Stand to see you are trying to go about this the wrong way.

Noone is unselfish. Everyone is full of self. The self life rules.

Here is the entire article of SELF from the Green Letters. I post it only because it's a very good devotional, and people rarely follow links. The link is here though - http://withchrist.org/MJS/self.htm

One of the most important factors in Christian growth is the Holy Spirit's revelation of the self-life to the believer. Self is the fleshly, carnal life of nature, the life of the first Adam -- "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1); thoroughly corrupt before God (Galatians 5:19-21); the life in which there is no good thing in the sight of God (Romans 7:18). Nowhere do spiritual principles mean more than here. Plato, with his "Know thyself," was more right than he knew, but still only half right. Paul, with God's "Not I, but Christ," was all right!

In order for one to get beyond just knowing about the Lord Jesus, and enter into a consistent and growing personal knowledge of and fellowship with Him, one must FIRST come to know oneself. Introspection is not involved here -- the Holy Spirit uses experiential revelation. First, the believer learns "Not I," then, "but Christ." First, "Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone," then "but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit" (John 12:24). First, "alway delivered unto death," then, "that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest" (2 Corinthians 4:11). In service: first, "death worketh in us," then, "but life in you" (2 Corinthians 4:12. All resurrection life springs out of death, else it would not be resurrection life -- His risen life (Roman 6:5-6). We are to yield ourselves unto God as those that are alive from the dead (Romans 6:13).

For some years now the scene has been dominated by a conversion known as "commitment," which often, sad to say, amounts to little more than a spiritual miscarriage. When there is a bit of life it usually blossoms overnight into full bloom, and soon becomes heavy with the fruit of "dynamic," "radiant," personality coupled with busy, rushing service. The tragedy of this sort of thing is the self is at home and thrives in the glow of it all, and is rarely found out for what it really is. All is indiscriminate "hearts and flowers."

The healthy new birth, based on deep conviction of sin, and repentance toward God, starts out clear and strong with love and devotion to the Savior. But, ere long, there comes the sickening realization of an element within that pulls one back to self-centeredness, to the world, to the rule of the law, to sin. This learning by heart-breaking experience of the utter sinfulness and reigning power of self in the everyday Christian life, is the means whereby we come to know the Lord Jesus beyond the birth-phase -- as our Savior; on to the growth-phase -- as our Lord and Life. "To me to live is Christ." No believer will truly come to know the Lord Jesus as his Life until he knows by experience the deadly self-life deep within for what it is.

At a Spiritual Life Conference many years ago, Dr. C. I. Scofield said, "Not everyone, by any means, has had the experience of the seventh of Romans, that agony of conflict, of desire to do what we cannot do, of longing to do the right we find we cannot do. It is a great blessing when a person gets into the seventh of Romans and begins to realize the awful conflict of its struggle and defeat; because the first step toward getting out of the struggle of the seventh chapter and into the victory of the eighth, is to get into the seventh. Of all the needy classes of people, the neediest of this earth are not those who are having a heartbreaking, agonizing struggle for victory, but those who are having no struggle at all, and no victory, and who do not know it, and who are satisfied and jogging along in a pitiable absence of almost all the possessions that belong to them in Christ."

J. C. Metcalf gives this same fact an added witness: "Many a young Christian, who has not been warned of this necessary voyage of discovery upon which the Holy Spirit will certainly embark him (Romans 7), has been plunged into almost incurable despair at the sight of the sinfulness which is his by nature. He has in the first place rejoiced greatly in the forgiveness of his sins, and his acceptance by God; but sooner or later he begins to realize that all is not well, and that he has failed and fallen from the high standard which he set himself to reach in the first flush of his conversion.

"He begins to know something of the experience which Paul so graphically describes: 'What I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I (Romans 7:15), and, in consequence, he feels that the bottom has fallen out of his Christian life; and then perhaps the Devil whispers to him that it is just no good his going on, because he will never be able to make the grade. Little does he know how healthy his condition is, and that this shattering discovery is but the prelude to a magnificent series of further discoveries of things which God has expressly designed for his eternal enrichment. All through life God has to show us our own utter sinfulness and need, before He is able to lead us on into realms of grace, in which we shall glimpse His glory."

Self-revelation precedes divine revelation -- that is a principle for both spiritual birth and spiritual growth. The believer who is going through struggle and failure is the Christian who is being carefully and lovingly handled by his Lord in a very personal way. He is being taken through the experience (years in extent) of self-revelation and into death; the only basis upon which to "know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death" (Philippians 3:10).

God works by paradox. Success comes via failure; life springs out of death, etc. The only element in the believer's life that crumbles is that which has to go anyway -- the new life can never be harmed or affected. This disintegration is something the believer cannot enter into nor engineer on his own -- self will never cast out self. He has to be led into it by the mercy of the Holy Spirit -- into failure; abject and total. "For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest of our mortal flesh" (2 Corinthians 4:11). So often the means utilized by the Spirit is an unsaved mate, or even a saved one! Or poor health, yes, and good health, too! A thousand and one things are used by Him -- in fact, everything (Romans 8:28-29), to bring out the worst in us, ultimately enabling us to see that the Christian life has to be "not I, but Christ." People, circumstances, etc., are never the cause of failure. Self's reaction to them is the cause, and the one problem to be dealt with. "It's me, it's me, O Lord."

"Many of us have probably known what it was to rejoice in the grace of God without having apprehended very much the true character of the flesh. It has often been noticed that where there is the greatest exuberance of joy in young converts, there is often a levity which fails to take into account that the flesh is unchanged. In such cases the grace of God is taken up in a self-confident way; there is very little self-distrust, or sense of weakness and dependence. And the inevitable consequence is a fall, or a succession of falls, that gradually bring home to the consciences of believers their utter weakness and incapacity as in the flesh." --C. A. Coates

Evan Hopkins shares some important light on our subject: "How infinite are the forms in which self appears. Some are occupied with good self. They pride themselves on their excellencies. Others are just as much occupied with bad self. They are forever groaning over their imperfections, and struggling with the flesh as if they hoped in time to improve it. When shall we be convinced it is so utterly bad that it is beyond all recovery? Our experience, upward, in the power of God, is just in proportion to our experience, downward, in ceasing from self.

"Is it, Reckon yourself to be weak in reference to sin? No, it is lower than that. Is it, Reckon yourself to be dying? No, lower still. 'Reckon yourself to be dead -- (Romans 6:11) -- indeed unto sin.' Some believe they are very weak. But what does that imply? that they have some strength. But when a man is dead he has no strength. We must act on the fact that we are dead in reference to sin. We shall not then speak of difficulty as to resisting temptation in reference to ourselves. We shall take the lowest place, and say it is impossible with self is possible with God. We shall take our place on the resurrection side of the cross, and in so doing we leave behind the old self-life for the new Christ-life. To live in Him who is our Life, is to be in the power of God." Someone has rightly said that "there are many 'separated from the world' Christians who are not 'separated from themselves' Christians."

[biblereader]

I agree, I need more education in theological matters.
I shall read this when we get back into town.
I wanted to thank you, though, for posting it.

Originally Posted by Luke

Sister, you really need to read Watchman Nee's Sit, Walk, Stand to see you are trying to go about this the wrong way.

Noone is unselfish. Everyone is full of self. The self life rules.

Here is the entire article of SELF from the Green Letters. I post it only because it's a very good devotional, and people rarely follow links. The link is here though - http://withchrist.org/MJS/self.htm

One of the most important factors in Christian growth is the Holy Spirit's revelation of the self-life to the believer. Self is the fleshly, carnal life of nature, the life of the first Adam -- "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1); thoroughly corrupt before God (Galatians 5:19-21); the life in which there is no good thing in the sight of God (Romans 7:18). Nowhere do spiritual principles mean more than here. Plato, with his "Know thyself," was more right than he knew, but still only half right. Paul, with God's "Not I, but Christ," was all right!

In order for one to get beyond just knowing about the Lord Jesus, and enter into a consistent and growing personal knowledge of and fellowship with Him, one must FIRST come to know oneself. Introspection is not involved here -- the Holy Spirit uses experiential revelation. First, the believer learns "Not I," then, "but Christ." First, "Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone," then "but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit" (John 12:24). First, "alway delivered unto death," then, "that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest" (2 Corinthians 4:11). In service: first, "death worketh in us," then, "but life in you" (2 Corinthians 4:12. All resurrection life springs out of death, else it would not be resurrection life -- His risen life (Roman 6:5-6). We are to yield ourselves unto God as those that are alive from the dead (Romans 6:13).

For some years now the scene has been dominated by a conversion known as "commitment," which often, sad to say, amounts to little more than a spiritual miscarriage. When there is a bit of life it usually blossoms overnight into full bloom, and soon becomes heavy with the fruit of "dynamic," "radiant," personality coupled with busy, rushing service. The tragedy of this sort of thing is the self is at home and thrives in the glow of it all, and is rarely found out for what it really is. All is indiscriminate "hearts and flowers."

The healthy new birth, based on deep conviction of sin, and repentance toward God, starts out clear and strong with love and devotion to the Savior. But, ere long, there comes the sickening realization of an element within that pulls one back to self-centeredness, to the world, to the rule of the law, to sin. This learning by heart-breaking experience of the utter sinfulness and reigning power of self in the everyday Christian life, is the means whereby we come to know the Lord Jesus beyond the birth-phase -- as our Savior; on to the growth-phase -- as our Lord and Life. "To me to live is Christ." No believer will truly come to know the Lord Jesus as his Life until he knows by experience the deadly self-life deep within for what it is.

At a Spiritual Life Conference many years ago, Dr. C. I. Scofield said, "Not everyone, by any means, has had the experience of the seventh of Romans, that agony of conflict, of desire to do what we cannot do, of longing to do the right we find we cannot do. It is a great blessing when a person gets into the seventh of Romans and begins to realize the awful conflict of its struggle and defeat; because the first step toward getting out of the struggle of the seventh chapter and into the victory of the eighth, is to get into the seventh. Of all the needy classes of people, the neediest of this earth are not those who are having a heartbreaking, agonizing struggle for victory, but those who are having no struggle at all, and no victory, and who do not know it, and who are satisfied and jogging along in a pitiable absence of almost all the possessions that belong to them in Christ."

J. C. Metcalf gives this same fact an added witness: "Many a young Christian, who has not been warned of this necessary voyage of discovery upon which the Holy Spirit will certainly embark him (Romans 7), has been plunged into almost incurable despair at the sight of the sinfulness which is his by nature. He has in the first place rejoiced greatly in the forgiveness of his sins, and his acceptance by God; but sooner or later he begins to realize that all is not well, and that he has failed and fallen from the high standard which he set himself to reach in the first flush of his conversion.

"He begins to know something of the experience which Paul so graphically describes: 'What I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I (Romans 7:15), and, in consequence, he feels that the bottom has fallen out of his Christian life; and then perhaps the Devil whispers to him that it is just no good his going on, because he will never be able to make the grade. Little does he know how healthy his condition is, and that this shattering discovery is but the prelude to a magnificent series of further discoveries of things which God has expressly designed for his eternal enrichment. All through life God has to show us our own utter sinfulness and need, before He is able to lead us on into realms of grace, in which we shall glimpse His glory."

Self-revelation precedes divine revelation -- that is a principle for both spiritual birth and spiritual growth. The believer who is going through struggle and failure is the Christian who is being carefully and lovingly handled by his Lord in a very personal way. He is being taken through the experience (years in extent) of self-revelation and into death; the only basis upon which to "know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death" (Philippians 3:10).

God works by paradox. Success comes via failure; life springs out of death, etc. The only element in the believer's life that crumbles is that which has to go anyway -- the new life can never be harmed or affected. This disintegration is something the believer cannot enter into nor engineer on his own -- self will never cast out self. He has to be led into it by the mercy of the Holy Spirit -- into failure; abject and total. "For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest of our mortal flesh" (2 Corinthians 4:11). So often the means utilized by the Spirit is an unsaved mate, or even a saved one! Or poor health, yes, and good health, too! A thousand and one things are used by Him -- in fact, everything (Romans 8:28-29), to bring out the worst in us, ultimately enabling us to see that the Christian life has to be "not I, but Christ." People, circumstances, etc., are never the cause of failure. Self's reaction to them is the cause, and the one problem to be dealt with. "It's me, it's me, O Lord."

"Many of us have probably known what it was to rejoice in the grace of God without having apprehended very much the true character of the flesh. It has often been noticed that where there is the greatest exuberance of joy in young converts, there is often a levity which fails to take into account that the flesh is unchanged. In such cases the grace of God is taken up in a self-confident way; there is very little self-distrust, or sense of weakness and dependence. And the inevitable consequence is a fall, or a succession of falls, that gradually bring home to the consciences of believers their utter weakness and incapacity as in the flesh." --C. A. Coates

Evan Hopkins shares some important light on our subject: "How infinite are the forms in which self appears. Some are occupied with good self. They pride themselves on their excellencies. Others are just as much occupied with bad self. They are forever groaning over their imperfections, and struggling with the flesh as if they hoped in time to improve it. When shall we be convinced it is so utterly bad that it is beyond all recovery? Our experience, upward, in the power of God, is just in proportion to our experience, downward, in ceasing from self.

"Is it, Reckon yourself to be weak in reference to sin? No, it is lower than that. Is it, Reckon yourself to be dying? No, lower still. 'Reckon yourself to be dead -- (Romans 6:11) -- indeed unto sin.' Some believe they are very weak. But what does that imply? that they have some strength. But when a man is dead he has no strength. We must act on the fact that we are dead in reference to sin. We shall not then speak of difficulty as to resisting temptation in reference to ourselves. We shall take the lowest place, and say it is impossible with self is possible with God. We shall take our place on the resurrection side of the cross, and in so doing we leave behind the old self-life for the new Christ-life. To live in Him who is our Life, is to be in the power of God." Someone has rightly said that "there are many 'separated from the world' Christians who are not 'separated from themselves' Christians."