[greenbear]

Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Isaiah 14:13-14 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Ezekiel 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

I don't know if any one has thought of this before, I guess people probably have but it's a thought that I just had that's new to me. Of course, this is just speculation... but what if what Lucifer "covered" was God's person or His glory and he acted as His proxy or mouthpiece?

That might help account for Lucifer's "identity crisis". That is, thinking he could be like the eternal God. Lucifer might have become "schizophrenic", confusing his identity with God's identity.

What if what he was trafficking in was access to God or God's power? I thought this passage was interesting from this viewpoint.

Acts 8:9-24 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime

in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving

out that himself was some great one: To whom they all gave heed, from the

least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God. And to him

they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with

sorceries. But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the

kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men

and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he

continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which

were done. Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that

Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive

the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were

baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them,

and they received the Holy Ghost. And when Simon saw that through laying

on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may

receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee,

because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with

money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not

right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray

God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. For I

perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of

these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

Just a thought.

[CKG]

Originally Posted by greenbear

Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Isaiah 14:13-14 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Ezekiel 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

I don't know if any one has thought of this before, I guess people probably have but it's a thought that I just had that's new to me. Of course, this is just speculation... but what if what Lucifer "covered" was God's person or His glory and he acted as His proxy or mouthpiece?

That might help account for Lucifer's "identity crisis". That is, thinking he could be like the eternal God. Lucifer might have become "schizophrenic", confusing his identity with God's identity.

What if what he was trafficking in was access to God or God's power? I thought this passage was interesting from this viewpoint.

Acts 8:9-24 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime

in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving

out that himself was some great one: To whom they all gave heed, from the

least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God. And to him

they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with

sorceries. But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the

kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men

and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he

continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which

were done. Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that

Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive

the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were

baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them,

and they received the Holy Ghost. And when Simon saw that through laying

on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may

receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee,

because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with

money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not

right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray

God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. For I

perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of

these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

Just a thought.

Interesting thought. Ezekiel 28:17 tells us about the annointed cherub "Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty" which caused him to declare "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north" (Isaiah 14:13). He had a heart problem (For thou hast said in thine heart). Although these verses are spoken about sinful man they can apply to Lucifer,

Romans 1
21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie

Lucifer believed the lie that the creature can take the place of the creator.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by CKG

Interesting thought. Ezekiel 28:17 tells us about the annointed cherub "Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty" which caused him to declare "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north" (Isaiah 14:13). He had a heart problem (For thou hast said in thine heart). Although these verses are spoken about sinful man they can apply to Lucifer,

Romans 1
21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie

Lucifer believed the lie that the creature can take the place of the creator.

I think this thread is also important in determining how well you study your Bible. Many Bible grounded Christians come at me with this "Satan, the fallen angel..." nonsense. Satan was chief of 5 cherubs, all higher in order than Micheal the archangel, who did not have the rank to rebuke Satan.

Grace and peace

Tony

[chette777]

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

"Satan, the fallen angel..." nonsense. Satan was chief of 5 cherubs, all higher in order than Micheal the archangel, who did not have the rank to rebuke Satan.

Grace and peace

Tony

Tbones,

what Bible scriptures do you have to support that Satan was chief of 5 cherubs all higher order than Michael the Archangel?

The example of Michael not rebuking the Devil(Satan) for the body of Moses did not rebuke because Satan was of a higher rank. He did so because he knows who truly hold all power over him. it is not about not having the right to rebuke the context of Jude is all about men speaking evil of dignitaries without any regard to their power and authority and they did so without knowledge.

I here men and women all the time here saying such silly things as, "I rebuke the spirit of Adultery, or drunkenness" most of the time this mentality comes from the false teaching of God's word. because both of those things are list as being the flesh and not spirits at all.

[greenbear]

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

One third of the angelic host followed Lucifer. He was an important guy, not just an angel. He was one of 5 cherubims.

Angels in general are referred to as morning stars but only Lucifer is referred to as the son of the morning. There are not 5 sons of the morning. I believe it is apparent that Lucifer was the first created being. As such, he was higher than the other cherubim.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by chette777

Tbones,

what Bible scriptures do you have to support that Satan was chief of 5 cherubs all higher order than Michael the Archangel?

The example of Michael not rebuking the Devil(Satan) for the body of Moses did not rebuke because Satan was of a higher rank. He did so because he knows who truly hold all power over him. it is not about not having the right to rebuke the context of Jude is all about men speaking evil of dignitaries without any regard to their power and authority and they did so without knowledge.

I here men and women all the time here saying such silly things as, "I rebuke the spirit of Adultery, or drunkenness" most of the time this mentality comes from the false teaching of God's word. because both of those things are list as being the flesh and not spirits at all.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Chette, recently(one reason I've been absent from the forum) I had a Bible study I helped some friends in Russia take part in on the order of sentient creation, we covered 874 verses. The order is:

Lucifer, the covering cherub
The four cherubims
Micheal the archangel
The Angels
Jesus Christ of Nazareth(in His earthly ministry to Israel as the Lamb of God)
Mankind
Animal life

Before I am accused of being an "Arian", "Gnostic", or "Ebionite" with regards the Lord Jesus in the list above, while He is God and has always been God, He did at a definite time have a created Body, to be born of a virgin:

Ps 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Another little mind-numbing thing came out in this study: If you study Biblical numerics(the symbolism, similitudes, of numbers), not numerology(an occultic form of fortune telling)you will learn 5 is almost always associated with death while 6 is always associated with incompleteness, and mankind. The number 666 of the Anti-Christ is a "Trinity" of incompleteness, entirely associated with a man:

II Thes. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Here is what will give you goosebumps:

Eze 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

Look at the list above and note the subjects 5th and 6th on the list. Why would the 5th in the list be associated with death? Whose death caused the reconciliation of (believing)mankind to God, Who has conquered death by "tasting death" for every man?

Sometimes I study two verses to get light on a topic and end up with a list of 200 on 20 topics before I ever stop, and they all fit.

In Ez. 28 we are told of Lucifer(Satan) as he once was, the most beautiful creature of creation. In Job 41 we see him as he appears to God, in II Cor. 11 we see him as he appears to the world, an angel of "light" and his "ministers" as ministers of "righteousness".

There is no Scripture anywhere to even hint that an angel is higher in order than a a cherubim, even Micheal the archangel. With one "exception":

Zec. 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Heb. 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

The "angel" of the Lord was God Himself, the Son, in what is called a "preincarnate" appearance of Jesus Christ as God. There is a ranked hierarchy to all creation that God set in place. The "angel of the Lord" could rebuke Satan, He outranks everything and everybody, Micheal can't. That is why when Satan showed up in Job among the "sons of God", a fistfight could not break out. Satan is the devil, true, but he retains his rank among the higher created beings and though he would like to be the most desperately wicked thing above all things, he isn't, the human heart is(Jer.17)

As I told Tim(Boaz) just go with the flow and let God put the Scriptures together, when we do it on our own, we end up with Herbert and Garner ted Armstrong, Joseph Smith, Alexander Campbell, Jim Jones, and the Roman Catholic "church".

Grace and peace friends

Tony

[chette777]

Well I wont accuse you of being anything at this point.

Now we connect Ezk 28 to Lucifer however that name is only found in ISA 14. so there is no scripture to support it is clearly Satan. We have to assume that on our own and it may be a good assumption. Ezk 1 and 10 describe to beings a set of Cherubim. the only difference I can see is the number of wings each have. Cherubim have less wings.

Isa tells us about these beings and there the name seraphim's comes into view Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphim's: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. six wings or three sets of two.

Ezk 1:6 tells us the beings had four wings or two sets of two Eze 1:6 And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings. Eze 1:11 Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies. Eze 1:23 And under the firmament were their wings straight, the one toward the other: every one had two, which covered on this side, and every one had two, which covered on that side, their bodies.

Revelation 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. six wings or three sets

Eze 10:21 Every one had four faces apiece, and every one four wings; and the likeness of the hands of a man was under their wings. so two sets. so these then are Cherubim.

now the Cherubim in Ezekiel are said to be the base of what is known as the Chariot throne of God almighty. Never at all is it said to have been covered or that there was a cover. both seraphim's and cherubim are connected to the throne of God almighty

I would have trouble believing that this throne is not exactly as it was from everlasting(eternity past) when it had been established. I would have a problem that Lucifer was part of the chariot throne as these Cherubim obviously are.

One of the faces is that of a Cherub. that is interesting but to cross reference these two we see that the seraphim's and the cherubim looked surprisingly alike except for the number of wings. in one description of the cherubim the face is like an OX an the other the face is that of a Cherub. Satan/Lucifer a Cherub had small set of horns, wide eyes rounded nose, and hairy. Now I am not being dogmatic I am just taking the scriptures for what they say. I am not making them say anything. if it is Satan has four faces and two sets of wings feet like a calf. if not He has one face that looks like an ox on what could be a human looking body. the description of Cherub /Cherubim for the temple does not have four faces but does have two sets of wings and in that description it has two cherubs covering the mercy seat which is design after the heavenly pattern.

Cherubim was first put in the garden along with a flaming sword. Ezk 1 and 10 tells us what that being looked like and Revelation shows us a similar being but with more wings. Still cherubim and seraphim's are associated with the throne of Almighty God. We are not told that Lucifer had anything to do with that throne. we do know he had his own throne or one he though was his.