[greenbear]

Originally Posted by kevinvw

Or maybe the dogly line of Seth!?

Sorry, bad joke.

Belly laugh!

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

Regarding Job 38 proving "sons of God" = angels: Not every creature in heaven is an angel. The name "angel" doesn't exist in Job 38.

Tim you rascal, you avoided the question, WHO IS SHOUTING FOR JOY?
the word BIBLE doesn't exist in the BIBLE, but the Bible exists.
Your point is moot.

Originally Posted by Greektim

I knew we had something in common Bro. Parish. I agree w/ you.

LOL, okay Greektim, you have my permission
to beat Bro. Tim about the head on this issue...

Seriously folks, to me it's not that big of a deal.
There are good men on both sides of this...

[Brother Tim]

LOL, okay Greektim, you have my permission
to beat Bro. Tim about the head on this issue...

HA! He hasn't been able to touch me for years! He even got sick when he came to Florida and had a lunch scheduled with me. Totally terrified! His knees were smiting each other.

P.S. When I get back from church tonight, I am going to show how confusing this idea can be. Prepare to be astounded.

[Brother Tim]

Okay, let us do a little review:

Who are the "sons of God"?

In the NT, the phrase appears six times. In every case, it is identifying the saints, never heavenly or spirit non-human beings.

In the OT there are three locations where the phrase is used.
First, in Genesis 6, which we are discussing. There, these beings (no number given, only plural -sons-) produce offspring with multiple "daughters of men" who then become notable men of their era. Nothing more is said that narrows down the identities of these beings in the passage. The word "angel" does not appear as a link, while the title "angel" does appear elsewhere in Genesis.

Second, in the beginning two chapters of Job, "sons of God" are in the presence of the LORD when satan lays down his challenge. The obvious observation is that this takes place in Heaven during Job's lifetime. Again, nothing further is given to describe these beings. Again, the word "angel" does not appear as a link. "Angels" does appear later in Job 4.

Third, in Job 38, the LORD uses the phrase "sons of God" to identify heavenly beings who shouted for joy during the beginning stages of earth's creation. Again, the term "angel" was absent.

The OT "sons of God" have been assumed variously to be:

[1] Heavenly angelic or non-angelic beings (in Job 1-2 & 38)
[2] The spirits/souls of early OT saints (Job 1-2 in particular)
[3] Angelic beings, more specifically, fallen angels (Genesis 6 in particular)
[4] Decendents of Seth (Genesis 6 in particular)

In its broadest sense, "sons of God" could describe any or all created beings, spiritual or physical. I will agree that Job 38 was not speaking of humans (duh). These are created heavenly beings of some type.

-------------
Let us assume for a moment that those who support the "fallen angel" definition for Genesis 6 are right. I have these questions:

[1] When did the fallen angels fall? Most place this either prior to the six-day creation of earth, or during that time. Genesis 6 takes place much later. If 2 Peter and Jude are referring to this event, why did God allow them free reign for so long? On the other hand, if these passages refer to the event of rebellion, then these angels were already judged.

[2] How could this be limited in time scope or individuals participating? Are you claiming that all of the fallen angels chose to mate with human women all during the same pre-flood time period? If there were any who did not participate, then they were not under the 2 Peter/Jude judgment and therefore could have at a later point in time done the same thing.

[3] There appears to be two groups of thought: [a] The angels took on fleshly form in every aspect and thus the intercourse was possible. Then why would the offspring be any different than other human children? [b] The angels had some kind of created innate ability to impregnate women. Some have even compared this to Jesus' conception (which nauseates me!) This would require that God designed these spirit beings with spiritual sperm. Why?? Remember what Jesus said about the angels and marriage.

[4] IF giants were the resultant offspring (which as I have posted earlier, the sentence structure does not support), then this same behavior was present after the flood and throughout history, for there have been giants reported and documented. Does this not call into question the Jude judgment?

-----------

Finally, Bro. Parrish and his new buddy, GT, mock this venerable old saint by asking,

Tim, if the sons of God are not angels, then who are they, JEWS?

Again, I say: Not every creature in Heaven is an angel! Angels are ONE form of heavenly being.

------------
Enough for now...

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

Finally, Bro. Parrish and his new buddy, GT, mock this venerable old saint by asking,

Quote:
Tim, if the sons of God are not angels, then who are they, JEWS?

Again, I say: Not every creature in Heaven is an angel! Angels are ONE form of heavenly being...

Come on buddy, you still haven't answered the simple question. Who shouted for joy in heaven when God laid the foundations of the earth?

Here's a hint:

Tim, by my count there are approximately 15 or more verses in the book of Revelation ALONE that mention angels shouting, sounding, vocalizing or crying with loud voices in heaven. I don't see any other forms of heavenly being doing this, do you?

10 "Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth." Luke 15:10

[Brother Tim]

From Bro. Parrish:

Come on buddy, you still haven't answered the simple question. Who shouted for joy in heaven when God laid the foundations of the earth?

From my last post:

In its broadest sense, "sons of God" could describe any or all created beings, spiritual or physical. I will agree that Job 38 was not speaking of humans (duh). These are created heavenly beings of some type.

That's as close to a factual answer as you can get. All else is speculation.

[Brother Tim]

Bro. Parrish, Are you using the term "angel" to describe all the heavenly hosts? Are the four beasts of the Revelation a type of angel? They participate in the praises. In fact, they are in the center of the congregation doing the praising. The Scriptures distinguish them from angels.

Revelation 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Revelation 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Revelation 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

Revelation 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Revelation 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Revelation 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Revelation 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

[chette777]

BroTim,

The four beast of Revelation 4 are Either Seraphim or Cherubim as their description matches that of Ezekiel 1:4-28 and 10:1-22. We tend theologically to classify them as angels but angels always look like men and have no wings. I like to say they are spiritual beings God created from everlasting (Eternity Past) that is why we find no mention of their creation in the Bible.

[Brother Tim]

Chette, I agree with you. I think that the description and behavior of the Revelation beasts matches that of the Seraphim and/or Cherubim of the OT. They are unique heavenly creatures always connected with the presence or throne of God. They are distinct from angels, God's messengers and emissaries.

Tim, by my count there are approximately 15 or more verses in the book of Revelation ALONE that mention angels shouting, sounding, vocalizing or crying with loud voices in heaven. I don't see any other forms of heavenly being doing this, do you?

Bro. Parrish "overlooked" their participation in heavenly praises during the Revelation story.

My opinion is that these are the "sons of God" in Job 38. By the way, Bro. Parrish, I will return your question to you regarding Job 38...
Who are the morning stars who sing? Stars did not come into existence until day 4. [note: No fair going to the Hebrew again. ]

[greenbear]

Originally Posted by Luke

To refute the "godly line of seth"

i) There is no such thing as a godly line of anyone. Jesus genealogy was not godly - it included murderers, adulterers and harlots.

ii) A "saved", "righteous" or "godly" person does not have gigantic children, anywhere in scripture. The opposite is true. Goliath, had four brothers and all of them were his sons. He committed incest with his mother. Not a godly act.

iii) If seth is so godly, why did he do this thing, and why is everyone judged for it?

EXACTLY!!!