[George]

Originally Posted by ScotArt

"George
You posted"
Quote
"The problem is (according to the Bible) “spiritual things” are taught by the Holy Ghost and NOT by man, and so, although students who attend Bible schools may acquire a lot of KNOWLEDGE about the Bible; church history; etc.; - they CANNOT acquire spiritual DISCERNMENT, UNDERSTANDING, or WISDOM, from a school (or those who teach) since these “spiritual things” CANNOT be taught by men!"

"Not to be pendantic but are you not here applying restrictions to where and when and with whom the Holy Spirit may work and reveal Truth and wisdom.

Does the Holy Spirit spend time away from the "student" that his ability to "spiritually discern" is not in place for that particular time frame?

Also does the Holy Spirit not use "means" such as the pastor, teacher, faith sharer??? Is that "means" ie the Christian involved as instrument of Truth/wisdom, not also provided with grace and the Spirits divine power to bring the Word within the discernment provided for the hearer/student?

If I have misread your article I do apologise. But I don't see "spiritual discernment" as having an on/off switch in the true believer, whether they are being used by the Holy Spirit to communicate the Word or receive the Word. The Holy Spirit is surely a permanent resident when "indwelling" in the Christian. This would imply that HIS work is ongoing and continuous! "

In Christ.
Art.

Aloha ScotArt,

Here is what the Holy Bible has to say about this issue:

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

I don't know what part of my little essay you don't understand (brother Chette and sister Nasil had no problem understanding), but I am puzzled by your reply. First off - you wrote: "pendantic", did you mean "pedantic":

pe-dan-tic [puh-dan-tik] - adjective

1. ostentatious in one's learning. 2. overly concerned with minute details or formalisms, esp. in teaching.

Also, pe⋅dan⋅ti⋅cal.

Origin:
1590–1600; pedant + -ic

Related forms:
pe⋅dan⋅ti⋅cal⋅ly, adverb
pe⋅dan⋅ti⋅cal⋅ness, noun

Synonyms:
2. didactic, doctrinaire.

Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.

pe-dan-tic (pə-dān'tĭk) adj.

Characterized by a narrow, often ostentatious concern for book learning and formal rules: a pedantic attention to details.
pe·dan'ti·cal·ly adv.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

Secondly: I am not "applying restrictions to where and when and with whom the Holy Spirit may work and reveal Truth and wisdom." at all! I would NEVER try to RESTRICT the Holy Spirit's work in anyway. You are "reading into" what I wrote - a private interpretation that was not meant or implied.

I am simply saying that when I teach the Bible, I can only teach "knowledge". I can point out differences, such as the the difference (in the Bible) between the Jews, the Gentiles, and the church, but unless the Holy Spirit instructs the believer (that is "gives" them the "discernment" to distinguish the difference between the three Scriptural divisions of all mankind) they will not "get it".

So, I may try to teach about "discernment" i.e. contrasts, differences, etc. (as I have often done here on the AV1611 Bible Forums), but if God doesn't instruct the believer, he cannot receive spiritual "discernment" (not from me).

And as far as spiritual "understanding" and "wisdom" go, I cannot "teach" those things at all! This is the reason I keep saying that Bible schools, colleges, and seminaries can teach Bible "knowledge", but genuine spiritual "discernment", "understanding", and "wisdom" come only from God and CANNOT be taught - not by pastors/elders; not by Sunday School teachers; and especially not by "Christian" college professors.

WHY is it that every single "Christian" College or University ever established eventually "apostatizes" (without one exception)? The answer is very simple (that is to someone like myself) "knowledge puffeth up" [1 Corinthians 8:1].

Church history has demonstrated (over & over again) that over time - Christians (in all Denominations & Sects) eventually "think" that "knowledge" (alone) qualifies a man to teach the Bible. That is: "Christians" - who lack not only "knowledge", but who also lack spiritual "discernment", "understanding", and "wisdom", entrust the instruction of future pastors, elders, and evangelists to extremely intelligent men who are very "knowledgeable" about the Bible, but who, more often than not, have very little spiritual "discernment", "understanding", or "wisdom". {Origen, Eusebius, Jerome, Augustine, & Calvin being "prime examples" - "Intelligence": erroneously referred to as "head knowledge", is in reality having to do with the "intellect", i.e. the mind - not the heart.}

But God is not interested in how "smart" (our intelligence) we are; or how much "education" (schooling) we have received; He's interested in "FAITHFULNESS" [1 Corinthians 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.] and the only way a man can be "faithful" to God is - he must be "faithful" to God's Holy words. God is not concerned with our "intellect" or "schooling" (like most Christians are today); God is concerned with our heart attitude, as the Scriptures clearly testify to:

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

Do these verses describe the average "Christian" Bible teacher or professor in the "Christian" Schools and Colleges today? I trow not! But it does describe Paul & Peter; and James & John; and Timothy & Titus. WHY then has God chosen "the foolish things"; "the weak things"; the "base things"; the "things which are despised"; and the "things which are not"?

SO THAT:

29 That "no flesh should glory in his presence".
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Most Christians today "glory" in their "pastor"; or "teacher"; or in their "favorite Bible commentator"; or in their particular church (Denomination); or in their "Christian" School; or in their "Christian" College "professors". They "glory" in ANYTHING - but God and His Holy word!

According to the Scriptures - most of today's "Christian" churches (Evangelical & Fundamental - all others are not in view) in the Western world are "CARNAL" [1 Corinthians 3:1-4]. They are worse than the Corinthian church, the most "carnal" church in the New Testament. The fact that most Christians today cannot "discern" this, or do not "understand" this, speaks volumes about the true "spiritual condition" of the Evangelical & Fundamental churches (especially in the Western world) today.

Over the years, I have learned that, as far as the Bible is concerned - there are basically FOUR KINDS of people in the world; and THEIR APPROACH to the Bible is determined by WHO THEY ARE - there are:

Those Who ____________________________ Those Who Study _________________________ Those Who Study __________________________ Those Who Study
IGNORE IT _____________________________ TO DISPROVE IT _________________________ TO KNOW ABOUT IT ___________________________ TO BELIEVE IT

Most People -------------------------------- Agnostics Religionists --------------------------- Pharisees & Sadducees --------------------------- Genuine Bible Believers
Majority of Mankind -------------------- Adherents to World’s Religions ----------------------- Cults – False Religions ----------------------------- Sincere Truth Seekers
-------------------------------------------- Humanists -Secularists --------------------- “Scribes” - “Christian Educators” ------------------- Trust God for Its Preservation
------------------------------------------- “Scholars” - “Educators” ------------------------- Historians - Archeologists ---------------------- Believe God Rather Than Man
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------- Anthropologists, etc, etc. ----------------- Accept What’s Written & Don’t Change

The following verses are just some of the reasons I believe that the King James Bible is THE Holy Bible - inspired, perfect, infallible, and without error; and that is WHY it is my FINAL AUTHORITY in all matters of faith and practice. WHAT IS YOUR FINAL AUTHORITY?

Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Psalms 18:30 As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.

Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.

Psalms 56:10 In God will I praise his word: in the LORD will I praise his word.

Psalms 119:9 BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

Psalms 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Psalms 119:16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.

Psalms 119:42 So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word.

Psalms 119:74 They that fear thee will be glad when they see me; because I have hoped in thy word.

Psalms 119:81 CAPH. My soul fainteth for thy salvation: but I hope in thy word.

Psalms 119:105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Psalms 119:114 Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.

Psalms 119:128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.

Psalms 119:130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it givethunderstanding unto the simple.

Psalms 119:133 Order my steps in thy word: and let not any iniquity have dominion over me.

Psalms 119:140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.

Psalms 119:147 I prevented the dawning of the morning, and cried: I hoped in thy word.

Psalms 119:148 Mine eyes prevent the night watches, that I might meditate in thy word.

Psalms 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

Psalms 119:161 SCHIN. Princes have persecuted me without a cause: but my heart standeth in awe of thy word.

Psalms 119:162 I rejoice at thy word, as one that findeth great spoil.

Psalms 119:169 TAU. Let my cry come near before thee, O LORD: give me understanding according to thy word.

Psalms 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

Psalms 130:5 I wait for the LORD, my soul doth wait, and in his word do I hope.

Psalms 138:4 All the kings of the earth shall praise thee, O LORD, whenthey hear the words of thy mouth.

Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for
thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Real genuine Bible study should not be just an academic exercise or a mere intellectual pursuit. Instead, true Bible study should be an honest and sincere search for the truth. “What saith the Scriptures?”

Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by chette777

Scotart,

Our spiritual life does indeed have and on off switch because of our sin nature. that is why Paul encourages us not to quench or grieve the Holy Ghost. depending on many factors you can indeed turn off the Holy Ghost. Intellectual Pride, continued unconfessed sin, cultural contamination (worldliness), changing the word of God to conform to scholastic interpretation just to name a few.

There are many and subtle ways in which we can turn off spiritual discernment and other spiritual activities in our life. The way to keep them on is where most lack the ability. Prayer, Purity, and Permissiveness of the Holy Ghost

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

Whoa, sorry brother Chette but red lights and alarms are going off all over the place here. What is "...continued unconfessed sin..."?

Grace and peace

Tony

[johnlf]

I always like to try to put troublesome verses in context. Who, what, why, when, where, how, etc. Let's look at the whole story.

26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. 27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. 30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? 31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48 I am that bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him

When we concentrate on the highlighted verses we see the context clearly. Jesus was at this point being thronged by people who had just seen him miraculously feed five thousand people. What was their first reaction?

15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

What was His response?

26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.



So here we are with an amazing miracle that only God could have done and what do people want? Why to make him their king of course! Free food for everyone forever! But he departed because he knew they weren't getting the point. Next, when they finally catch up with him, they have accepted that he won't be their king. So the next best thing is to learn how to make miracle bread for themselves:

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

But he rebukes them again. They just aren't getting it. He is the bread! The bread represents eternal life that all who BELIEVE on him receive. But they still don't get it:

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

And this is where we get the key verse:

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me

You see, they said that God was their father. But they did not believe that the father had sent him. They didn't know they father, so they didn't believe him either. He said the same thing in other places:

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works

John 14
King James Bible

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. 41 I receive not honour from men. 42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

The ones who were drawn to Jesus were the ones who already knew the Father. To all the rest he was just a miraculous breadmaker. But to the ones who already knew the Father, he was the Son of God, the only one with the power of eternal life:

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 16
King James Bible

[chette777]

I don't think it is that hard to understand Tbones. you call it backsliding. you may be forgiven in Gods eyes by Christs work. but don't you think for a moment that the Holy Ghost wont be grieved or quenched because of it. Sin has results even for believers. many a problem with believers today is their getting in sin and not confessing it and forsaking it and they end up confused, sick, sometimes even dead. We don't get a free ticket to sin you know. Check out 1Cor 11:27-34 and see what happens to those who partake the lords supper in an unworthy manner-they are instructed to judge themselves before taking it. because of unconvicted and unconfessed sin many were weak, sick and sleeping (dead).

I am not however talking about sin before one is saved I am talking about what one does after being saved. all sin is forgiven but you can't be a believer and continue to sin and do nothing about it. so shut down your red lights and alarms you got them tuned to the wrong cord. I am not talking about confessing sin before one can be saved, I am talking about confessing ones sin after being saved. 1John 1:9

[johnlf]

Originally Posted by chette777

Check out 1Cor 11:27-34 and see what happens to those who partake the lords supper in an unworthy manner-they are instructed to judge themselves before taking it. because of unconvicted and unconfessed sin many were weak, sick and sleeping (dead).

First of all let me say that it is always good advice for us to be told to examine ourselves. But how many of us confess our sins daily? Or even better, as they happen? I always have a good belly laugh every time I hear a brother talk about how he hasn't sinned in a month. Hahahaha, that's a great one. I say take a look in the mirror brother, God's Word says you're fibbing:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

John 1
King James Bible

Here's a perfect example of my pet peeve or bugaboo. Taking a verse out of context to promote a tradition. Let's examine the verse in context:

17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. 18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. 19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. 20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. 21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. 22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. 34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.




Please take note of the above highlighted verses. Paul was not condemning them for not examining themselves with a fine tooth comb before coming to church. He was condemning for being selfish GLUTTONS at the Lord's table. Now please note that they were partaking of a REAL meal and drinking REAL wine, not grape juice and crackers.

Some people were getting drunk on the wine because they had no meat to go with it, and others who were poor were ashamed because they were hungry, and there was nothing left for them to eat because the big fat SELFISH gluttons had hogged it all up!

So here you have quite a picture. Believers coming together to remember the most selfless act in the universe, the Godman Jesus allowing his body to be broken and his blood to be poured out to save all mankind from a fate worse than any of us can imagine. And how do they signify it? By being selfish greedy gluttons who care nothing for others except for their own belly. Can you blame God for judging them?

So next time you are trembling in a wooden pew, worried about possible sins that you've committed, waiting for them to come by with grape juice and crackers, think about the real MEANING of this verse. Don't be a selfish glutton and put your needs above the needs of the needs of others. Think of other people first, especially the less fortunate:

17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? 18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Walk in love my brothers

[boaz212]

Thanks johnlf for your thoughts on John 6. I have been reading over the whole book of John. I am getting bits of understanding here and there but not in a whole picture yet. Your study helps a lot. Please take care.
And, welcome to the forum!

[chette777]

NO verse 31 is not out of context Judge ourselves for what are you going to judge that you didn't eat out of place?

There is a contextual change at verse 23 to speak of the Lords supper and how it is to be properly done. Look closely and prayerfully and you will see more than the sin of gluttony going on in the previous verses. you limited your study to your own Private Interpretation of gluttony and it is more than that.

Before Verse 23 there is the issue of proper Prayer and in vs 13 you have the term Judge IN yourselves.

Then you have Paul commenting on "Coming together not for better but for worse." This covers a lots of issues, you will notice Paul's comment "For FIRST of all" Which tells you there are divisions, (secondly)then Heresy, (thirdly) and then he covers the issue of not waiting for everyone to assemble before partaking(thinking higher of ones self). and One is going without food and is hungry which means the poor were being neglected, (fourthly) and then he mentions drunkenness.

so you see your interpretation that these verses are dealing with the problem of Gluttony is a private interpretation. For Paul is covering a lot more than gluttony here. he is talking about the over all sin that was prevalent in the lives of the Corinthians.

Seems to me you would never apply that verse to yourself or the church.

I do try at the end of each day to examine my day by the Holy Sprint and see if I needed to confess anything. It is not needed but helpful for anyone who desires continual spiritual growth in their life. And before we take communion in our church I teach Cor 11:23-31.

[chette777]

Let me ask you Johnlf.

You claimed I was teaching a Tradition. Can you tell me what one that is. I was teaching a spiritual application not a tradition.

Do you think it is wrong to teach a spiritual application of searching ones heart before communion from Cor 11:23-31?

Do you think it is wrong to make a spiritual application to confess one sins from 1John1:9?

would you feel it was wrong to teach a spiritual application to search and confess sins before coming to the Lord in prayer? or before coming to him for Bible Study?

I would not list them amongst major doctrines mind you. but for personal discipleship I would teach these applications.

things we would not think of of sins and we generally see it in others is pride, arrogance, knowledge.

Now, if Paul said that because of the many sins (wrong prayer, not caring for the poor in the assembly, causing divisions, teaching heresy, eating out of places, drunkenness) that many were sick ,weak and dead. would you think that because we are not Corinthians that the Idea of judging ones self before taking the Lords supper is wrong?

[johnlf]

Brother

My point here is about tradition. I think that somehow it is easier for me to see man-made tradition because of my own unique circumstances. I have never been a member of any denomination or sect because I have studiously avoided that for 23 years as the Lord has led me. I do not forsake the assembling with other Christians, but I also steadfastly refuse to bring myself under the yoke of any man-made doctrine.

We must always remember that our Lord Jesus was also a prophet. He was a tremendously controversial figure who overthrew centuries of accepted understanding of Scriptures and tradition. He also HATED the traditions of men and the adding to the Word of God. In his denouncing of man-made traditions, he in my opinion reached the pinnacle of his office of prophet:

1 Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem. 2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault. 3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. 4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables. 5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: 11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand: 15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man. 16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable. 18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; 19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? 20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Ever since Cain and the founding of Babylon mankind has attempted to reach God and seek righteousness through works, ritual, and tradition. It is the nature of the flesh. I denounce man-made traditions of my day in the same way my Lord did in his day.

I see traditions which add or subtract from the Word of God as being on the same level as Bible versions which add or subtract from the Word of God. I fear no man or devil, but I tremble in abject terror at thought I might add or subtract from God's Words.

Now to revisit the issue. I maintain that most of what passes today as the Lord's supper is the result of man-made tradition. People sitting in wooden pews taking a sip of grape juice and a bite of a cracker is not in my opinion what our Lord intended. And it is certainly not what Paul is describing as going on here in this verse.

I did not say that this verse is only about gluttony. I said it is about selfishness which was manifested as gluttony, and had the result of drunkeness as well as the shaming of the poor. That is what Paul is denouncing.

To re-iterate. This verse is NOT about examining ourselves for any unconfessed sin before following what is in my opinion a man-made ritual of sitting in wooden pews and partaking of a small wafer and grape juice.

But this verse IS about Christians coming together for a meal and sharing bread and wine together in remembrance of the selfless sacrifice their Lord made for them. And being rebuked because some of them were so selfish that they made gluttons of themselves by hogging up all the food, which caused others to become drunken and the poor to be ashamed.

[chette777]

John,

Why do you feel the verse cannot carry the application of examining or judging ones heart of any sin before taking of the bread and the cup? Are you saying then these scriptures have no application for us today because we don't feast as they did in the days of Roman rule? what and why was Paul telling them to examine and judge then?

I agree that the Lords supper can be a little ritualistic and cold. I would be interested in hearing more form you on the issue of the Lords Table.

Would you start another thread and expand more on your idea of the Lords Table. what it should be, how it should be carried out etc. Mind you lets keep it inline with the Bible. It is obvious you have given this much thought and you may be a benefit to edify us all.