[cb6445]

Ok, don't tear me up to bad on this one. I have really been trying to rightly divide the word. I had someone (a preacher) try to convince me of something, that is a little deep for me. My spirit just doesn't line-up with what he was saying, and it goes completely against what I am persuaded to be the truth. I prayed and asked the Lord to show me what he is saying here, and have been meditating over this one piece of scripture for 2 days now. This preacher was saying that Luke 12: 46 was talking to a church age saint. Saying that if they were found getting drunk and living "in this world" he would be dealt a portion with the unbelievers. I am fully persuaded for this to be false, but I wanna hear what and why some of you other dear men of God agree or disagree with this. This preacher was saying the Lord is speaking about the Kingdom of God and what will happen to those found this way would not be raptured out but would have to stay through the tribulation and endure to the end. I've never heard anything like this in my life. I love this man that believes this with all his heart and soul, but I wanna prove this to be false. However, I'll need all the ammunition I can get, he's stubborn and stuck on this. God Bless!

[Samuel]

Although I might not agree with his exact interpretation, and results. I can't give you any ammunition to use, my interpretation is probably worse than his.

[cb6445]

Well, does this not take away from salvation by grace through faith (Eph 2: 8)?

[Winman]

Well, this will probably cause a big uproar, but I do not believe the scriptures absolutely forbid all drinking. Now that said, the scriptures clearly condemn drunkenness.

Luke 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

Matt 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Now here the Lord Jesus himself said he came eating and drinking. Now, if he had only drank water, I hardly think people would have had reason to call him a winebibber. Our modern term for winebibber is a "wino" or "drunk".

And Jesus first miracle was to make wine. Now, I have heard many pastors preach this was new wine, but I do not believe that's what the scriptures say. Read careful and see my remarks after. This is the wedding feast in John chapter 2.

John 2:7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim. 8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it. 9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, 10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

First, notice that the word "good wine" is used, not "new wine". Now stop and think about this for a moment, what makes wine "good"?? The answer is AGE. Everybody knows including non-drinkers that the more wine ages, the better it gets. People pay very high prices for old, aged wines. So this "good" wine has fermented and is absolutely alcoholic.

And this was what was so remarkable about this wine, not that Jesus has just made it from water, but that it also had the characteristics of very old, aged wine, that would be much better than new wine.

So, I don't know if the Lord drank wine, it seems to go against the grain of everything preachers and pastors have always taught. But the scriptures themselves seem to clearly say that Jesus did drink wine. That said, Jesus never sinned, so we know for absolute certain that he did not get intoxicated.

Now, I know this goes against what everybody has always been taught, but I try to read the Bible as for what it says, not what men teach.

And we know in 1 Corinthians that people in the church were drinking alcoholic wine, because they became drunk.

1 Cor 11:21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. 22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

Now, pay careful attention here. We know they were drinking alcoholic wine because they were drunken.

But the next verse (22) is even more significant. Look at Paul's response. Paul said "What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in?"

Now, this is significant. If it was absolutely forbidden for Christians to drink alcoholic beverages, then certainly Paul would have condemned it right here. Paul could have said right here that Christians can never drink wine or other alcoholic beverages. But he does not. He was in effect saying, if you want to drink excessively, you can always do that at home, but you should never eat like a glutton or drink to drunkenness in the church.

And then we have the qualifications for deacons.

1 Tim 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

Now, this verse does not forbid a deacon to drink wine, it forbids a deacon to drink MUCH wine. That is to be drunken or a winebibber.

Now, I know this will offend many, but I try to understand the scriptures for what they truly say, not what men teach, even if that person is a great and sincere preacher or pastor.

I do not write this to condone drinking alcoholic beverages, I think every person is better off not drinking. But I do not think we should condemn a person for having a glass of wine with dinner, I think the scriptures allow very moderate drinking.

[cb6445]

Thanks for the response. I'll agree that a man could drink wine, as long as he doesn't drink enough to get even the slightest change in his feeling (buzz, for lack of a better word). The reason I do not feel a man should is personal, but I feel it greatly damages your testimony. So, although this may be "lawful" for me, it is not expedient, because I feel it damages your testimony. As I'm sure you would agree. But I'm asking do you feel like this person who does choose to drink (and get drunk), or say in his heart "my Lord delayeth his coming", or "beats the menservants and maidens", etc. will be "cut asunder" and "dealt a portion with the unbelievers"? I do not. He's basically saying if a person who was saved (for sure) in this church age (that we're living in now) went to doing these things would not be raptured out with the church. If this be so, how come we find nothing about this in any of Paul's 13 epistles to the "church age saint"?

[Winman]

Clint,

Once you are saved, you cannot lose your salvation. It is God himself who keeps us, not ourselves. If a person were to lose their salvation everytime they sinned, no one could ever "know" he or she has eternal life. But the scriptures say we can know for certain.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God;that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

This verse clearly says that a person who believes on Jesus can know they have eternal life. If we could lose our salvation because of sin, we could never know for certain if we were saved, because any honest Christian will admit they sin at times.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

And John 5:24 shows that the moment you believe on Jesus, that you pass from death to life, and that you have (hath) this everlasting life NOW.

And I agree with you, a Christian should not drink because it is a poor testimony, plus it could cause someone else to stumble and fall. But note that Jesus also includes gluttony in Matt 11:19 and Luke 7:34 alongside being a winebibber. Lots of folks do not think that overeating is a sin, but being obese is a serious health problem. I know a person who is at least 150 pounds overweight, and he suffers from high blood pressure, diabetes, and kidney stones. This person has not had a single drink in his entire life but suffers terrible health problems from eating too much. So, in my opinion, being a glutton is just as sinful as being a winebibber.

So I am not condoning drinking in anyway whatsoever. But I do think some who teach that a Christian cannot drink in moderation are wrong. Maybe I am reading the scriptures wrong, but I don't think so. I simply want to understand the scriptures as God intended, not as men teach.

And Jesus warned of those who would teach man's tradition and reject God's commandments.

Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

[Winman]

And here is a passage that is often used to teach that a Christian cannot drink, but I think it is misapplied.

Luke 5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old. 37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. 38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved. 39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

First, look at verse 36. Have you ever tried to sew a new piece of cloth onto an old garment to patch it? What happens when you wash it? The new piece shrinks and tears the old garment. The old garment does not shrink because it has been washed many times before.

And why would you not put new wine into an old bottle? Because the new wine will ferment and create gas, causing the old bottle which has already been stretched to it's limit to burst. So, you put new wine in a new bottle that can expand as the wine ferments.

So, I believe Jesus was saying here that you expect the wine to ferment and expand.

And then in verse 39, Jesus himself says "old wine" is better than "new wine".

What this is saying is that a person who receives Christ should put on the new man and not walk in the old sinful nature. These verses really are not talking about drinking whatsoever.

[peopleoftheway]

So I am not condoning drinking in anyway whatsoever. But I do think some who teach that a Christian cannot drink in moderation are wrong. Maybe I am reading the scriptures wrong, but I don't think so. I simply want to understand the scriptures as God intended, not as men teach.

I am one of those Men who teach that a Christian cannot drink in "moderation"
Why? I shall tell you..
Because before the Lord set this unworthy soul on the path of righteousness I was a miserable drug and drink addict, I KNOW firsthand the evil of alcohol in moderation or not, it consumes, it destroys, it ravages, Oh Boy does it Biteth!

Proverbs 23:32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

There was a thread on this forum last year on this subject and quite rightly Brandon closed it, and I hope that this subject stays closed. There is no such thing as "moderation" when it comes to alcohol.

Clint Brother
YOU CANNOT LOSE YOUR SALVATION ...PERIOD ! it is not yours to lose, It was a Gift of God that seals you until the day of redemption, any man that tells YOU that any sinful habit you may still struggle with will deny you your salvation, needs to take a mighty big step down of his soap box of self righteousness.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

2 Corinthians 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

There are many many more wonderful verses from scripture that speak of ETERNAL SALVATION, any sins committed in the flesh after salvation will not be judged as the lost will, but we will ALL as Born again Children of God, be judged as Sons.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Pay no mind to any man that is trying to rob you of the "Blessed Hope"

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

In addition

Brother may I also add that this portion of scripture is speaking of the wicked, the evil servant, the unbelievers, who have denied Christ and his appearing

Luke 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Those who profess to be saved, have a form of godliness but lack the power. It speaks of wicked hypocrites who will share the same portion as unbelievers because they were never truly Born again

2 Timothy 3:1-5 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn
away.

This is the portion with the unbelievers

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

[Winman]

POTW

I knew my answer would bring reactions like this, and this is why I was almost afraid to post. But I have provided scripture to support my view.

It was Jesus himself who said he came eating and drinking. And then he said he was wrongly called a glutton and a winebibber.

Now, do you believe Jesus ate food? Of course he did, but he was not a glutton. And I believe this verse also says he drank wine in moderation. Believe me, I had been taught in church all my life that a Christian should not drink, but when I looked closely at what the Bible says, I do sincerely believe it does not condemn very moderate drinking.

And it is no different with food, except we have to eat food to survive and do not need to drink. But to eat food in moderation is not a sin, it is necessary for good health. To completely abstain from food is very unhealthy. But to eat in excess is very sinful and harmful to the health.

I think we should go by what the Bible says, not what men teach. When the Bible says deacons should not be given to MUCH wine, it is not making an assumption that a moderation of wine is OK, it is implied and easy understood.

The Bible teaches against drunkenness. Now, I will agree, it is difficult to know where moderation stops and excess begins.

And many millions of people have a problem with alcohol (and many with food), but many people can drink in moderation. My father who recently passed away would have a glass of wine with dinner on occasion. In my entire life I never witnessed him drunk even once. He was a very sober, and self-controlled man who was moderate and very temperate in everything he did. It is the person who controls how much they drink in the end. It is similar to gun control extremists who want to get rid of all private ownership of guns. It is not the gun that causes crime, it is the owner.

[peopleoftheway]

Brother Winman

With the utmost respect to you and what you believe, may I ask that the subject of whether or not it is correct for a Christian to drink alcohol not be discussed, for it was flogged to death last year spurring the closure of the post, and I am quite certain those who participated do not wish to go through the motions of that subject again.

Drink almost killed me when I wasn't right with the Lord, as did other substance abuse...but His grace is sufficient for me.

I ask this in brotherly love